The Coronavirus thread

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Gandler

Quote: ams288

I guess it’s one of the few areas I veer more towards libertarian. We should all be more like Montana when it comes to speed laws.

And if cops can’t find more important things to do than man speed traps, that’s a signal that maybe we need less cops .

You do realize the number of traffic fatalities (not to even get into injuries and property damage numbers).

Traffic enforcment is probably one of, if not the best thing, cops can do to protect lives (based purely on mathematics)....

Speaking of traffic safety. I would make it a requirement that all insurance polices state the approximate increase in a person's insurance rate due to different cases of violations or accidents.

Right on the front page of every bill or policy in big bold letters.

I remember when they started requiring to show payoff on credit card policies vs minimum and within 3 years. Thought that was a good idea as well.

That is a great idea.

But, I understand by they want to not publicize that information. Of course if it was a requirement it would be more standardized.

Quote: ams288

I guess it’s one of the few areas I veer more towards libertarian. We should all be more like Montana when it comes to speed laws.

And if cops can’t find more important things to do than man speed traps, that’s a signal that maybe we need less cops.

Redacted because wrong thread.

Quote: Gandler

I don't believe in the phrase "speed traps" , its a misnomer, its like when people call "bait cars" "entrapment". As long as the speed limit is clearly posted and cops pull you over for going 11+ (which is the standard most places), its just the traffic laws actually being enforced.

The issue is most Americans are used to speeding, so cities/towns that enforce speeding are labelled as "speed traps" and are the exception, if traffic enforcement was more uniform the reverse would be true.

I must protest, that while I do not speed and have no problem with speed traps, I have never heard the term used or used the term in such a way.

"Speed Traps," I have heard one of two ways:

1.) A place that motorists drive past such that a cop car can sit in a way that is almost fully concealed. The thought being that, had the cop not been deliberately hiding, the motorist would have noticed the cop and slowed down---which demonstrates that the motorist was paying attention and therefore, driving safely, despite exceeding the speed limit.

2.) A sudden and precipitous drop in the speed limit with a cop who, "Camps," nearby, ready to pull over people essentially for not slowing down fast enough.

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Unfortunately, most Americans, even most cops I know, think of traffic/parking enforcement as a bogus detail and would rather fight "real crime". The realty is you are far more likely to die driving than you are to be killed by murder and terror attacks combined, so what really is "real crime"? Speeding tickets save lives (while also providing revenue for towns without having to raise taxes), its a win-win.

If you drive (or get driven), it is by far the most dangerous activity you do (unless you do hard drugs or are a heavy drinker)…..

So yes, I support traffic enforcement. In fact I think there is far too little of it.... I personally know more people that have been killed by drunk drivers than terrorists, so as heroic as SWAT Officers are, logistically, Traffic Officers save more lives. Very few people will say this, both because its not intuitive, and its socially controversial, but its mathematically true.

I have little sympathy for people who get speeding tickets and DUI arrests and then cry about "traps"...…

Despite our disagreement over what constitutes a speed trap, and the fact that I am a Libertarian, I mostly agree with this. I consider speed limits to be pretty necessary. Best handled and decided upon on as local a level as possible, of course.

Quote:

I honestly think a good middle-ground that many cities are expanding to, is speed cameras (similar to red-light cameras). The only downside is, these tickets cannot put points on your license (since they can't prove the driver, they just hold the registered owner accountable like parking tickets). But, its a good way to issue hundreds of tickets a day with no risk to Officers. The PPA in Philadelphia is starting to install them over some roads, and warnings will be mailed out the first few months, but eventually it will switch over to tickets.

BOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Let them do the actual work. It's a cat and mouse game. Besides, if I blow a red light, it was a legitimate accident...so I don't want a camera to be able to just tag me 24/7 in the event I make an honest mistake. My thinking is, if I were running around blowing them intentionally, a cop would eventually catch me.

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I have received three traffic tickets in my life, 2 for speeding (both I definitely deserved, even though I could have had one dismissed on a procedural error with the Laser which I was encouraged by an attorney friend to do), one for no seat belt (I was not the driver, and it was a work truck with no seat belt, but that is another issue), and you know what I did? I was polite to the police and paid them when they were due because I was in the wrong.... Its not hard.....

I have yet to receive any. I think I only have one equipment citation, but that doesn't count against your license.

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If you are going to intentionally try to spread a disease to somebody who is doing their job, you are just a bad person, and I hope you get an additional ticket for not wearing a mask during a public interaction.... If you feel a ticket is unfair, fight it in court, you will probably lose and then have to pay court costs as well, but that is the proper recourse. There is no reason to cause a scene over a 100-300USD ticket....

In some jurisdictions, the court costs are part of the ticket and must be paid even if you don't fight. IOW, pleading guilty costs you no less than fighting the stupid thing and losing. I know that because that's what happened with my defiant trespass citation I got once.

Quote: Gandler

I honestly think a good middle-ground that many cities are expanding to, is speed cameras (similar to red-light cameras). The only downside is, these tickets cannot put points on your license (since they can't prove the driver, they just hold the registered owner accountable like parking tickets). But, its a good way to issue hundreds of tickets a day with no risk to Officers. The PPA in Philadelphia is starting to install them over some roads, and warnings will be mailed out the first few months, but eventually it will switch over to tickets.

Photo enforcement is an awful thing and IMHO if a POTUS candidate ran on bannint it they would win in a landslide. They are just about shaking down drivers for revenue. The same people who like them are the kind of people who want to pay an HOA to fine them if their grass is 1/2" too high.

Quote: AZDuffman

Photo enforcement is an awful thing and IMHO if a POTUS candidate ran on bannint it they would win in a landslide. They are just about shaking down drivers for revenue. The same people who like them are the kind of people who want to pay an HOA to fine them if their grass is 1/2" too high.

Yeah that is not going to happen.... Can't really be banned by executive order or even by congress. It is more of a State-Level restriction that can be imposed... Since it relates to driving (State Laws). And, most States are hesitant because of budget reasons.... And, even States with restrictions it more so relates to collections rather than ticketing (for example some states mandate that cities cannot have the DMV suspend your license for unpaid camera fines, but you can usually be added to the boot list still)…

In Europe such cameras have been around for decades and they get on just fine..... In many cities it has proven to be an excellent source of revenue and reduce collisions at intersections where installed (both of these points are empirically true, and you can look at just about any data from cities that have them before and after)…..

As for the HOA relation, some HOAs do actually have speed cameras (and can ticket property owners, people who don't live there its not enforceable). But, like I say to people who complain about HOA's don't buy there if you don't like it.... Its the free market. Conservatives should love HOAs, its literally private government and you can choose to sell your house and move to a different one if you don't like it.....

I must admit, Gandler makes an unassailable point as relates the HOAs.

Quote: Mission146

I must protest, that while I do not speed and have no problem with speed traps, I have never heard the term used or used the term in such a way.

"Speed Traps," I have heard one of two ways:

1.) A place that motorists drive past such that a cop car can sit in a way that is almost fully concealed. The thought being that, had the cop not been deliberately hiding, the motorist would have noticed the cop and slowed down---which demonstrates that the motorist was paying attention and therefore, driving safely, despite exceeding the speed limit.

2.) A sudden and precipitous drop in the speed limit with a cop who, "Camps," nearby, ready to pull over people essentially for not slowing down fast enough.

Many sudden decreases in speed on roads are because you are passing through a town or a residential area. Many people do not realize this when driving "backroads" but when a road drops from 60 to 35 you are driving through somebody's neighborhood, and there is a good chance the cop is there because of complaints from property owners. Speed limits never drop for no reason. Traffic engineering is a very calculated field.


These are almost always well advertised (warnings that the limit is changing in X Miles, then a warning of what the limit will be in X miles, then the actual change), people choose to ignore them...… There are many regulations regarding how much warning needs to be given for such changes, and I have yet to see a case where there was not proper signage, people just ignore the signs and either say they didn't notice or were "going with the flow of traffic".....

Quote: Mission146

Despite our disagreement over what constitutes a speed trap, and the fact that I am a Libertarian, I mostly agree with this. I consider speed limits to be pretty necessary. Best handled and decided upon on as local a level as possible, of course.

I agree. And, most (virtually all) are local decisions. With the exception of some State Roads (which may even fit your definition of local).

There is no such thing a Federal speed limits (well with some exceptions like Federal land, Military bases, parks, etc...…) And, outside of some commercial operators, the Federal government has virtually no regulations on driving.

Quote: Mission146

BOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Let them do the actual work. It's a cat and mouse game. Besides, if I blow a red light, it was a legitimate accident...so I don't want a camera to be able to just tag me 24/7 in the event I make an honest mistake. My thinking is, if I were running around blowing them intentionally, a cop would eventually catch me.

I disagree. I mentioned it earlier. But, red light cameras do decrease collisions at intersections where they are installed. This is simply true, and there are endless incidences in cities all over that people can look up. They are usually installed after a certain number or significantly higher than usual collision rate at risky intersections. They are almost never installed overnight at a random intersection to generate revenue (though that is a fine side effect), its usually after complaints and studies of collisions at "high risk" intersections.

Quote: Mission146

I have yet to receive any. I think I only have one equipment citation, but that doesn't count against your license.



In some jurisdictions, the court costs are part of the ticket and must be paid even if you don't fight. IOW, pleading guilty costs you no less than fighting the stupid thing and losing. I know that because that's what happened with my defiant trespass citation I got once.

I honestly don't know what an equipment citation is (some commercial violation I would guess?). But, I don't have anything that adds points to your license either. For points (in most states) you need a serious infraction like dramatically speeding (15 or 20 + over in most states) or reckless driving, etc....

I am not an expert on every locality. But you may be right in many cases. I think now court fees are turning into processing fees. Court fees can often be more than a traffic ticket. It may depend on the state, but in my limited personal experience if you paid the fine you just paid the fine and not the court cost. For example in my seatbelt ticket it was like 32USD, I just paid it online and no costs. For speeding, there was a court cost (so it may also depend on the type of ticket). I used to operate under the assumption if you paid it before a trial you just paid a fine, but if you wanted a hearing (and you lost) you paid the fine plus court costs, but that seems to be changing. For parking tickets and redlight camera tickets you almost always just pay the fine, and court costs only come into play if you actually want a hearing (which is really stupid to risk 150-200 in court costs for a 15USD parking ticket or even a 70USD red light ticket.....)

There’s definitely a camera catching toll booth runners. I paid out $150 in fines on all the ones I drove through during the night on a trip from Florida to NJ.

Quote: Gandler

If you are going to intentionally try to spread a disease to somebody who is doing their job, you are just a bad person, and I hope you get an additional ticket for not wearing a mask during a public interaction....

I’d say if the cop doesn’t want to get sick, they shouldn’t be pulling people over for something stupid like speeding during a friggin pandemic. 🤷‍♂️ (I know it’s not a popular opinion here, but I don’t care)

But I’m honestly curious now about what the laws of the various states and localities say about wearing a mask while in your own car.

Quote: rxwine

There’s definitely a camera catching toll booth runners. I paid out $150 in fines on all the ones I drove through during the night on a trip from Florida to NJ.

In NJ right now all tolls are camera only due to COVID-19. (unless it recently went back into cash operation)....

Meaning you just drive through it and they send you the bill in the mail, based on your plate, you don't have to stop and throw coins in the basket or go to the cashier. They take a photo of your plate and mail you a bill.

If you have EZ pass its not much of a difference. Which kind of begs the question of why EZ Pass was necessary in the first place? ... If their auto license tech could have been doing this all along.....


https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/03/let-crisis-bring-cashless-society-to-nj-toll-roads-editorial.html