First Principles

February 1st, 2020 at 5:04:34 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob

I'll tell you what they aren't built
on, telling people they're broken
and flawed.


Do you really think that is what I thought?!? That a relationship is based on telling people they are flawed? Use your common sense and your brain. Do you think people ever have to be reminded that they make mistakes and are not perfect? Or course not. The only thing people have to be reminded of is that they are worthy of love and that you love them.



Quote:
So you think forced conversion is
a lie.


Of course it is a lie and shame on you for perpetuating it. I should block you although I obviously have not because I still am responding to this outrageous stuff you keep saying. Here is the beginning of the quote from Pope Innocent III that you conveniently left out.

"[T]hose who are immersed even though reluctant, do belong to ecclesiastical jurisdiction at least by reason of the sacrament, and might therefore be reasonably compelled to observe the rules of the Christian Faith. It is, to be sure, contrary to the Christian Faith that anyone who is unwilling and wholly opposed to it should be compelled to adopt and observe Christianity. For this reason a valid distinction is made by some between kinds of unwilling ones and kinds of compelled ones."

You know I don't mind that you disagree with me, but at least be honest and fair. Try to learn something and challenge your beliefs. Don't always assume the worst in someone and take one small thing and purposely think that it is all that they believe. Be charitable and kind it is so much better than just spouting lies and distortions.

Here are a few more quotes just to help you understand:
Pius XII, Mystici Corporis
"It is absolutely necessary that conversion should come about by free choice, since no man can believe unless he be willing. . . . That faith without which it is impossible to please God must be the perfectly free homage of intellect and will.

Should it therefore at any time happen that, contrary to the unvarying teaching of this Apostolic See, a person is compelled against his will to embrace the Catholic faith, we cannot in conscience withhold our censure."

Here is one from Vatican II that I think you will like because it acknowledges that the Church is not perfect, but has always taught that you can never compel of force anyone to believe:
"Although in the life of the people of God in its pilgrimage through the vicissitudes of human history there has at times appeared a form of behavior which was hardly in keeping with the spirit of the gospel and was even opposed to it, it has always remained the teaching of the Church that no one is to be coerced into believing."
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 1st, 2020 at 11:46:13 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Do you really think that is what I thought?!? That a relationship is based on telling people they are flawed?


Hanging around Xtions is like
a constant pity party fest. They
constantly talk about how flawed
they are, and what horrible sinners
they are, and how lucky they are
to have their invisible secret friend.
Normal people don't talk like that
or even think that way. It's something
a Xtion has drilled into his head at
an early age.

Quote:
Of course it is a lie and shame on you for perpetuating it. Pius XII, Mystici Corporis
"It is absolutely necessary that conversion should come about by free choice,


20th century pope. Where is he
denying forced conversion was
ever condoned by the Church? Of
course he can't deny it, it was a
huge part of what they did for
centuries.

Quote:
"Although in the life of the people of God in its pilgrimage through the vicissitudes of human history there has at times appeared a form of behavior (forced conversion) which was hardly in keeping with the spirit of the gospel (but we did it anyway)and was even opposed to it, it has always remained the teaching of the Church that no one is to be coerced into believing."


They admit they did forced conversion
for centuries and you say I'm lying
about it? How does a half assed apology
100 years after they stopped doing it
change the evil of what they did for 100's
of years? Ruining peoples lives by
forcing them into a violent hateful
religion they wanted no part of. The
Vatican loves to gloss over it's ugly
past like it never happened.

Quote:
I should block you although I obviously have not


Really? I just sent you a PM and
here's what it says:



And you accuse me of lying?
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 1st, 2020 at 12:22:52 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Hanging around Xtions is like
a constant pity party fest. They
constantly talk about how flawed
they are, and what horrible sinners
they are, and how lucky they are
to have their invisible secret friend.
Normal people don't talk like that
or even think that way. It's something
a Xtion has drilled into his head at
an early age.


Again Bob I need to gently remind you that this is not true. In fact the opposite is true. Hang around healthy and regular Christians and they talk about hope, faith, and love. They are happy and normal.



Quote:
Of course he can't deny it, it was a
huge part of what they did for
centuries.


Even when a quote you misleadingly shortened is given to you, even when current teaching calling upon the fact that force is always wrong, you cannot face the truth that you are wrong. I don't know what to tell you.


Quote:
Really? I just sent you a PM and
here's what it says:


If you can explain why I should exchange personal messages with someone who has somehow on an annoymous forum searched to try and find out who I am and all about me; yet at the same time won't share who he is, then I might think about it.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 1st, 2020 at 1:12:07 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
Hang around healthy and regular Christians


ox·y·mo·ron
/ˌäksəˈmôrˌän/

a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction

Quote:
even when current teaching calling upon the fact that force is always wrong


Yet they DID IT ANYWAY FOR CENTURIES!!
What does their opinion of it NOW have
to do with what they did THEN?? I posted
a quote from a 13th century pope who said
hey, if you're coerced into converting, too bad,
you're a Catholic and have to act like one.
If he thought it was wrong, why didn't he
say it doesn't count and you're NOT a
Catholic now. Because he condoned it, that's
why.

Quote:
who has somehow on an annoymous forum


You certainly didn't act in an
anonymous way. You told us
the year you graduated seminary,
where you lived and what diocese
you were part of. You did everything
but tell us your real name. It took
all of 2 min to find you. You have
a bunch of videos on the YouTube.
Does that sound like somebody
who wants to remain anonymous.?

Here's what I did. I went to the list
of priests from your diocese and
found all the ones who got out of
seminary the same year you did.
I think there were three. It took me
10 seconds to figure out which
one you were from all the info you
supplied. BTW, I was shocked at
the number of priests in your
diocese who are over 60. It's like
90% of them.

I looked you up years ago to see
if you were a real priest or just
playing one on the net. People
do that, you know. I wasn't going
to waste my time talking to a faux
priest.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 1st, 2020 at 8:16:37 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob

Yet they DID IT ANYWAY FOR CENTURIES!!
What does their opinion of it NOW have
to do with what they did THEN?? I posted
a quote from a 13th century pope who said
hey, if you're coerced into converting, too bad,
you're a Catholic and have to act like one.
If he thought it was wrong, why didn't he
say it doesn't count and you're NOT a
Catholic now. Because he condoned it, that's
why.


Your reading skills are as bad as your comprehension. I've given you the full quote showing he did not condone it and you still keep spouting anti-historical lies.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 1st, 2020 at 10:32:43 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I've given you the full quote.


He did nothing to try and stop
it, that's the same as condoning
it. He also condoned it by saying
that a forced conversion is a
binding conversion and the person
converted by force is a full Catholic.

..declared categorically that no Christian should use violence to force Jews to be baptized so long as they were unwilling – though without specifying what was to happen if the illegal process actually took place. Indeed, Pope *Innocent III, in a letter of 1201 to the archbishop of Arles, considered that a Jew who submitted to baptism under threat of force expressed a conditional willingness to accept the sacrament, with the corollary that he was not at liberty to renounce it.

This is the typical Church MO,
talking out both sides of their
mouth at once. We don't like
it, but we'll do nothing to stop
it, and yes the person converted
under duress is a full fledged
Catholic and if he renounces
it that's heresy and we'll hunt
him down and punish him.

The Church did this very thing
with priest pedophiles, Said
they wholly condemned it,
and behind closed doors did
nothing to stop it. Criminal
priests were shuttled around
between dioceses, victims
were paid off, it was business
as usual. It was only after it
got to be such a huge problem
that it could no longer be
ignored did the Vatican take
steps to punish the guilty.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 2nd, 2020 at 7:32:46 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
He did nothing to try and stop
it, that's the same as condoning
it. He also condoned it by saying
that a forced conversion is a
binding conversion and the person
converted by force is a full Catholic.


This is your MO. You are proved wrong so you just go back and move the goalposts somewhere you like better. You say it is encouraged, I show you its not, you say its condoned, I show you its not, now you say the Church did nothing to try and stop it and the fact is it did. What are you going to say next? It is the whole Church's fault that despite its teaching, despite its efforts, there were still horrible sins in the Church. Are you going to say that the Church is broken and flawed like every human person? You would be correct, it is made up of men and women. Unfortunately you, who are without flaw, are not part of the Church, if you were I have no doubt we would be a little better.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 2nd, 2020 at 10:59:05 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
You say it is encouraged, I show you its not, you say its condoned,


You're really hung up on 'condoned'.
Forced conversion was a huge part
of the Churches MO from the 3rd
century right up to the 20th century.
Condoned or not, they let it happen
and relied on it to constantly expand
their power. Hundreds of books have
been written on the Inquisitions alone.
Like priest pedophilia, which the Church
also never 'condoned', forced conversion
has been part of the Churches ugly and
awful history for millennia.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 2nd, 2020 at 12:48:44 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Bob this is not true but it is the myths you choose to believe. I would suggest you read some world renowed historians to really learn the truth and complicated historical context of the things you are talking about. I'd hate for you to keep believing subjective myths instead of historical truth.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 2nd, 2020 at 4:17:05 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
I would suggest you read some world renowed historians.


Been reading them since 1995, you're
the one that's been lied to by your
Church. Denying what the Inquisitions
were all about isn't going to erase
them from history as the Vatican wants.

"The Inquisition, in historical ecclesiastical parlance also referred to as the "Holy Inquisition", was a group of institutions within the Catholic Church whose aim was to combat heresy. The Inquisition started in 12th-century France to combat religious dissent. It was a means used by the Catholic Church to enforce orthodoxy. Inquisitors would go out into troublesome regions, question people intensively, conduct tribunals and mete out punishments, sometimes harsh ones, like burning at the stake. Depending on the time and place, the targets were heretics, Jews, Muslims, Protestants, rationalists and sometimes people who held superstitious beliefs.
Torture was an integral part of the inquisitorial process, mainly to extract confessions — just as it was part of the systems used by secular courts of the time. Modern historians explain that the Church tried to regulate torture, establishing clear guidelines for its use. The Inquisition was based on intolerance and moral certainty. It tried to enforce a particular view, often with violent means."

And that still describes the Church
today, intolerance and moral
certainty.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.