Saint John Henry Newman

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October 18th, 2019 at 6:51:48 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Fleastiff
By 'understand' you really mean 'agree with you'. Sometimes people cling to what they value, despite any arguments that are advanced


No, I mean people are often stubborn and don't genuinely desire to seek after the truth that is objective and beyond them. They don't want to recognize that they can't determine the truth for themselves or make it up. They have to ultimately have faith. As you say some people cling to what they value and no matter what you might say the fact is they don't want to believe.


Quote:
e source and giver of all truth is The Great Pumpkin according to Charley Brown, the Sun God in many cultures, the Moon God amongst nocturnal creatures.


The truth about all these examples is that it is not them who is the source of all truth.

Quote:
Do you perhaps mean how people respond when someone is discussing religion at them.


No I mean just in discussing religion.

Quote:
YOU fail this test when you choose to accept that Australia is there but not accept the cartographer's notation that 'beyond here are dragons'.


I wouldn't trust a cartographer's map that said "beyond here are dragons". Would you?

Quote:
He be dead! He don't pray. He don't curse.


He is dead in a worldly sense and he doesn't curse, but he does pray. The love that unites us on Earth does not cease in death. He is very much alive, more so than us, and his love for all of us is perfect.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 18th, 2019 at 6:57:33 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: AZDuffman
Can you tell us a little more about him?


I would love to and will be able to do so soon.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 18th, 2019 at 7:06:13 PM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
Quote: Wizard
I was not aware of that. Can you expand on that point?

I would be interested in that as well
Science is constantly moving forward gaining more knowledge as the human race moves forward
There is all kinds of scientific research in different fields and they all point to evolution
Courtesy of the "failing" New York Times (trump joke)
All the recent articles regarding evolution
https://www.nytimes.com/topic/subject/evolution
They all pretty much confirm evolution as we expand our knowledge
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
October 18th, 2019 at 8:18:52 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman
n. What you accuse FrG and any other believer of you are doing the same, just the contrary position.


The problem I have with FrG, and have
always had, is that he never states
anything as his belief. He states
everything as solid fact. Prayer
does work. God is real. Jesus rose
from the dead. During the eucharist
the wine and wafer are changed
into the real blood and flesh of Jesus.

None of these things is provable,
yet he claims they are established
facts. Hospital studies have
shown time and again that praying
for the sick is a waste of time. And the
physical nature of wine and wafer
changes not the slightest in the
eucharist ceremony as testing has
shown many times.

If FrG would just state these are his beliefs
and not real facts, we would never
have a problem. I believe the universe
has been here forever. I can't prove
it, but many believe it and it feels
right to me. You want to believe
something else, fine, just don't tell
me it's a fact.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 19th, 2019 at 4:59:43 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Wizard
I was not aware of that. Can you expand on that point?


Sure.

Think genetics. Natural Selection is one thing. Survival of the fittest. Strong survive. Or best survive. For example, in birds the male is always the most colorful. In fact, in all of nature the male must be beautiful to attract a female, except for mankind where a beautiful female attracts the best males. Anyways, over the years this means that your average bird will look more colorful as the better color genes get passed down. This is how nature intended it. Substitute "God" for "nature" and you get a powerful proof that a God exists IMHO.

Now, what happens when you get a cross-breed. You get from nothing to disaster. A horse and donkey can meet at a bar, go home for a wild night, and she ends up expecting. She will deliver a mule. A mule is a useful animal, his back is brawny but his brain is weak. Mules cannot reproduce. So on the chance that this cross-breed happens in nature, and that chance is very low, no evolution happens.

So lets look at it other ways. It is generally accepted that life began in the water, of single celled beings. Can't even call them "animals." In some science class I don't remember where I do remember they said "well, these single cells just joined together and started working as one." OK, why would they do this? They have no power of reason, they just split to reproduce and that is that. For this reason I offer that if one is going to say this is where it all started, then we must say some greater force was making this happen. Think about it. Even if a few random single-cell animals "worked together" it would be a one-off.

Then lest ask another thing. Why is almost every being binomial? Not sure if that is the right word. Why is everything two eyes, ears, nostrils, sets of arms-legs-wings? Fish, birds, dogs, man. To explain why fish could eventually become amphibians we get told that "some jumped out of the water and survived just a bit, then got splashed back in, eventually they became amphibians." Or we hear that "genes mutated" to explain a new species. Well, if all these changes happened as things evolved, why did we not get a species with more eyes that could hunt better for example?

"Evolution" can explain why humans have gotten taller. But looking at other science, lots of it gets disproved without accepting at least some form of intelligent design.

You sort of need to question it the way a child questions religion. In "The Simpsons" Bart once asks, "Yes, I understand Hell is bad, but over an eternity wouldn't you get used to it?" The same questions must be asked about evolution, but we get told, "YOU CAN'T QUESTION SCIENCE!"

EDIT: This is just for animals. Plants should even less "evolve" into new species.
The President is a fink.
October 19th, 2019 at 6:00:40 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 62
Posts: 7831
the best doesn't survive, "good enough" survives. Doesn't have to be the fittest, just fit enough.
October 19th, 2019 at 9:44:29 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman

"Evolution" can explain why humans have gotten taller. .


The Japanese have shown why we
got taller. After the war they started
getting better nutrition and the
next generation was taller, the next
after that even taller. The average
height of a Civil War soldier was
5' 5". Better eating in the decades
after, it's 5 10 now.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 19th, 2019 at 9:55:01 AM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
Quote: FrGamble
One of my personal heroes was officially made a saint last weekend. It was such a great joy. I wrote my thesis on Cardinal Newman and believe he was one of the greatest minds in history.

He clearly showed that faith was rational and that unbelief was really based on a desire not to believe. He showed that we all live by faith aka trust. We trust our memory, our senses, and our reason. We trust them even when we know they are occasionally wrong because in most cases they are correct. To be human is to trust ourselves. We do this literally every hour of every day. He goes further to show how little we would know if we just had faith in ourselves. We must have faith in others to know anything. I've never been to Australia yet I have faith it is there because of the people who have visited it. I trust the mapmakers and that the photos from space are real. I have no immediate experience of it but I have faith in others so that I believe it, nothing is more rational and reasonable than this. The problem is that recognition of this fact is despised by many people. We sometimes secretly, sometimes more openly, hate the fact that we are so dependent on faith and trust in others for our knowledge. We want to make it up ourselves and believe what we want to believe and make ourselves God. This is the real reason for those who do not believe in God. They are stubborn and it boils down to not wanting to believe. You can show them why faith is the most human and reasonable thing we can possibly do, you can lay out arguments for God and show them evidence, but it won't really matter to them because belief in the true God means they have to come to grips with the fact that they are not God, and they can't.

I recently gave a few lectures on the life and legacy of the new Saint John Henry Newman and came to realize that this is the reason so many on the forum don't believe. If they don't want to believe; no evidence, no reason, no argument will even help them to understand. Even in Newman's day he gave a simple test to see if someone was serious about pursuing the truth, wherever it led, and someone who was really just trying to pretend to be God and hopelessly rebelling against the fact that they were dependent on faith by lashing out unreasonably against the one who they thought was their enemy, namely the source and giver of all truth, God. The test was about how people respond and act when discussing religion. Those who when discussing religious faith were angry, vicious, mean, and ignorant were not worth arguing with because they simply did not want to believe. I take a lot of solace in that and am trying to change how I interact with some of the forum members who fail Newman's simple test. St. John Henry Newman...pray for us!



Padre - what were the two "verified" miracles, required by the Vatican for canonization, attributed to praying to deceased Cardinal Newman?
October 19th, 2019 at 10:14:56 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: aceofspades
Padre - what were the two "verified" miracles, required by the Vatican for canonization, attributed to praying to deceased Cardinal Newman?


"Newman’s second miracle concerned the healing of an American pregnant woman. The woman prayed for the intercession of Cardinal Newman at the time of a life-threatening diagnosis, and her doctors have been unable to explain how or why she was able to suddenly recover.
This miracle was investigated by the Archdiocese of Chicago, and apparently has now been confirmed."

Once again, a jokefest. The docs
couldn't explain why she got well,
so of course the clowns at the
Vatican start screaming 'Miracle!
Miracle!' Thank god the rest of the
world has moved on from this
superstitious supernatural mindset
that crippled us for so many hundreds
of years.

Think about it. Some woman prays
to a guy who's been dead for 120
years, gets well, and that's good
enough for the Vatican 'investigators'
to proclaim it a miracle. They looked
a lot like this, I imagine:

If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 19th, 2019 at 11:13:00 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
St. John Henry Newman was born in 1801 and lived through most of the 19th century till his death in 1890. He was the oldest of six children in a very good family with a hard working father who tried his best through repeated business failures. Around 15 years old he had his first conversion. He was from this moment convinced that God in His desire to love humanity revealed definite truths to us through Revelation. From this moment on he took seriously his commitment to study and seek after truth. He went to Oxford and was truly an Oxford man. He excelled in his studies and took them very seriously, so much so that he fought against a culture of academic laziness whenever he found it and was often ridiculed for his hard work. That hard work took a toll on him and he had a nervous breakdown right before his important comprehensive exams to determine what college he may be accepted at as a fellow. Despite his poor performance on that exam his reputation preceded him and he became a fellow at Oriel college in Oxford. He was ordained an Anglican deacon and priest. The politics of higher education were always difficult for him and eventually he was made the Vicar of St. Mary's University Church. His sermons became more and more popular with the young students and his influence continued to grow. There is a great collection of them that you can read and they are fantastic! His good friend needed a trip to the Mediterranean for his health and Newman went along. They went to Italy and visited Rome where he was impressed by the Catholic Church but still thought it was corrupted by superstition. He went by himself to Sicily after Rome and there became deathly ill. This was his second conversion. He realized that he had sinned in his earlier academic career through his hard-headiness and pride. Now humbled he would recommit himself to seeking the truth wherever it may lead. Finally well enough to return to England he hoped on a ship carrying oranges to France and then to home. On that trip he wrote the beautiful prayer, "Lead Kindly Light"

Lead, Kindly Light, amidst th'encircling gloom,
Lead Thou me on!
The night is dark, and I am far from home,
Lead Thou me on!
Keep Thou my feet; I do not ask to see
The distant scene; one step enough for me.

I was not ever thus, nor prayed that Thou
Shouldst lead me on;
I loved to choose and see my path; but now
Lead Thou me on!
I loved the garish day, and, spite of fears,
Pride ruled my will. Remember not past years!

So long Thy power hath blest me, sure it still
Will lead me on.
O'er moor and fen, o'er crag and torrent, till
The night is gone,
And with the morn those angel faces smile,
Which I have loved long since, and lost awhile!

Meantime, along the narrow rugged path,
Thyself hast trod,
Lead, Saviour, lead me home in childlike faith,
Home to my God.
To rest forever after earthly strife
In the calm light of everlasting life.

He arrived back in England a changed man and in a country that had changed too. Parliament was flexing its muscles against the Anglican Church and he along with many others in the Church became more and more uncomfortable with the idea that the Church was subject to a monarchy as its head and the influence of a government in a National Church. He founded the Oxford Movement in striving to establish a middle way between Catholicism and Evangelical Protestantism. He hoped that through certain reforms of the Anglican Church it could be shown that the true Church of Christ was his. Over time and with much study and prayer he began to realize that there was no middle way and the true way was through the Church that Christ Himself had founded, the Catholic Church. He more and more removed himself from Anglicianism and began living a semi-monastic life just down the road from Oxford in Littlemore. Eventually in 1845 he converted to Catholicism. At this point he lost everything and was branded a traitor and reviled all throughout England. He returned to Rome and was ordained a Catholic priest. He returned to England to form an Oratory of St. Phillip Neri in London, these are secular priests who live in work in fraternal love without taking religious vows. He was content to remain out of the public eye and write. In 1854 he was asked to start the Catholic University of Ireland in Dublin. His collection of lectures to the faculty and staff were complied into a great book called, "The Idea of A University". Other important works of Newman are, "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine", about the evolution of Christian teaching over the centuries and how to determine authentic development from rupture or a break from Revelation and Tradition. "The Grammer of Assent", my favorite work on the journey of faith. He also wrote an autobiography in response to his critics called, "Apologia Pro Vita Sua", it is a masterpiece. He also wrote two novels and many poems and prayers.

This is of course just a brief sketch of his life that I thought I would quickly sit down and write. One thing I love about him as well is that he was really the first response of Christianity to the Enlightenment thought that dimmed in the French Revolution but was fanned again into flame in the Industrial Revolution and the advent of modern science. He was quick to see that faith and reason must always go together and if science truly discovered truth then it and religious faith go hand in hand and could never contradict one another.

Sorry for the long post but I love this guy and happy to answer any other questions anyone may have about him or his legacy.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
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