March for Life 2018

January 20th, 2018 at 8:03:17 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Evenbob
People can talk themselves into anything,
rationalize anything. I've read about the
guards and the Nazi's who ran the death
camps. They were monsters, but not to
themselves. They had all kinds of what
they considered 'good reasons' for killing
defenseless people by the thousands
every week. The talked themselves into
it, think about how scary that is. Just
like people talk themselves into partial
birth abortions.


About 50% of the population will hurt others, sometimes to the point of killing them, provided they are ordered to by a trusted source. This has been proven.
The President is a fink.
January 20th, 2018 at 8:21:00 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Quote: FrGamble
What if we removed someone's heart or their brain? i would call that an act of murder wouldn't you? What if you removed someone from the home they need to live for nine months in the winter and threw them outside with nothing? Would you call that murder?


Removing someone's heart or brain against their will, is usually murder if they are still functioning.

And I agree the state can enforce a lot of things, including the care of a children you don't want. It can force someone to care for a child they tried to abandon or a severely disabled child, but I don't believe it can enforce a bodily function contract between two people, whether adult fetus, or even adult/adult.

I'm calling it a bodily function contract for lack of a better term.

A person can't be convicted of anything by separating by bodily function connection -- one Simese (or conjoined twin as properly known) has the right to separated independently from the other even if it kills the other for instance, or even if the other refuses to consent. That is, if the operation is only necessary separation. There can't be intentional trauma, just necessary trauma.. Same with any other person.

And for as long as a separated individual lives, it has rights not to be forcibly killed. But that's it.

No one, or nothing has shared bodily function rights IMO.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
January 20th, 2018 at 8:38:37 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Hey maybe I've establish a new term.

"Bodily function right" = the non-existent right to be kept alive through the use of the someone else's organs and biological functioning, such as used by pro-life advocates as in a fetus cannot be removed even if administering only the necessary procedure without any attempt to further harm it.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
January 20th, 2018 at 8:55:26 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: FrGamble
In regards to the clump of cells you do not recognize as a human person you are simply wrong. Science shows us that this developing human being is unique and different than the mother. You seem to almost describe the developing baby as a parasite that a mother has a right to defend herself against. This flows into perhaps not also seeing the humanity and dignity of those who suffer with things such as down syndrome or much worse disabilities or deformities. I might not have the experience you have, but in my work I do help out at many place that care for the poorest of the poor and the sickest of the sick. These are religious homes, group homes, hospitals, and most profoundly families. You paint a very bleak picture for the minority of those who are very, very, seriously disabled. I feel your empathy and share in the gut wrenching pain you feel for them. However, I am also able to see through this to a human being that while bearing a tremendous cross has a dignity and value beyond our imagining. We have the medical knowledge right now to care for them in ways that make them comfortable and I feel very strongly and get a little queasy when anyone talks about having the right, even well intentioned, to end their life.


It's like this... women have natural abortions all the time. Sometimes an embryo makes it to the point of presenting itself so that the mother knows; hormone tests, weight gain, the typical signs, and we call that abortion a "miscarriage". Sometimes these are sad, sometimes they're not even noticed. There are also the ones that happen early enough that the mother does not even know she is/was pregnant. A missed period one month, a flush out the next. Poor health, poor diet, the embryo simply does not flourish and is purged. There are further "people", as you define a fertilized egg, which barely start at all. They don't attach, or attach somewhere they're not supposed to, and are later purged. This happens all the time, and in what I would guess is the majority of cases, these "people" are flushed right down the toilet.

Why don't you give them funerals? Why are they not exhumed and disposed of properly? Why are they not mourned and an obit placed in the paper? I realize in a few cases, such as the late term miscarriage, they indeed are. But for most, it's just sit and flush, whoosh down the toilet.

The potential, the "seed", I dig. But viewing this as a person isn't within my abilities. I think our differences are just as simple as that.

The rest I've not got much, and honestly, I just got off the ice and want to relax. But I hope you and everyone realize that my Hitler-esque statement about the developmentally disabled was in regards to a very slight minority of really horrible cases, way, wayyy beyond the difficulties of something as manageable as Down's and the like. On this I can only say that I personally have experienced pain the likes of which I cannot even describe. If I could give you one of my cluster headaches, which I could and would never, ever do to anyone if I could, and you could go even 5 hours of the 2-3-4 days of mind blowing agony without begging me to kill you, I would switch my stance to whichever one you prescribed based on respect alone. Knowing that far end of the bell curve of pain, and living in a time when something like the knowing and willful wish to die with dignity for these types is something which is banned, leaves me feeling that things need pushing in the other direction.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
January 20th, 2018 at 9:54:11 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Quote: rxwine
"Bodily function right" = the non-existent right to be kept alive through the use of the someone else's organs and biological functioning, such as used by pro-life advocates as in a fetus cannot be removed even if administering only the necessary procedure without any attempt to further harm it.


In fact, I would furthermore assert no one has any explicit rights underneath an individual's skin and all the organs within even if another person exists inside that boundary.

That is the individual's explicit undeniable territory and they are the ultimate ruler and controller of it.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
January 20th, 2018 at 10:20:23 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
Quote: FrGamble
Another good critique not so much of the pro-life movement but specifically the Catholic pro-life movement that is both against abortion and contraception, which seems very much like a lcontradiction.

The key is sex education. Sex education that fights against sex as recreation or as something we do for fun with those we feel are attractive. The natural order of sexual activity is to have babies. We need to fight against a porn saturated culture and reestablish the radical notion that you only have sex with those you desire to have a baby with, because even with using contraceptives this could very well happen. The false notion of "safe-sex" is another cause of unplanned pregnancies. People feel protected from any consequences and who always gets hurt, women. I work with college students a lot and even those who do not get pregnant have their hearts broken. The hook up culture hurts everyone, but in particular it hurts women.

Sometimes people say this is unreasonable. Teenagers and young men and women can't control themselves and they are going to have sex so arm them with dangerous artificial hormones and the false security of condoms. Meanwhile the STDs skyrocket and the spiritual and emotional parts of us suffer along with our physical health. We are better than that, and so are our young people and adults for that matter. I believe in the goodness and virtue of people and that they can control even the strong desires of lust that effect us all. I don't want to lower the bar because of the harm I have seen that does. I want to keep the bar high and help people to reach it.


I can see you teaching responsible sex, but I would appreciate a concentration on real-world practical advice rather than an idealistic and moralistic education. If girls and boys understood their bodies better, they would have more confidence in saying "no". They would also understand what acts lead to pregnancy, what acts expose them to std's, and how to protect themselves.

Quote:
Finally, I am greatly disappointed in your misunderstanding of Christianity if you think anything is meant to create guilt or sin as a means of controlling anyone. My religion is all about freedom from guilt and sin, it is why Jesus came and it is why He loves us unconditionally. The only agenda is helping people to realize their worth and dignity and encourage them to live up to their high calling. Nothing could be more freeing and liberating.


Greatly disappointed in my misunderstanding? And this is not manipulation of my guilt-and-sin upbringing how, exactly? You're sort of proving my point, Father.

Your religion starts, by necessity, assuming all men and women are sinners. If they're not, there is no point to Jesus. A lifeguard without drowning swimmers is a redundancy.

Sin must be defined in order to label a behavior as sinful. It must then be judged by the dominant society or its leaders as behavior anathemetic to the group. And the person exhibiting the behavior must be made to care that the group disapproves. Once they care, the guilt of displeasing the group is what makes them change their behavior and/or ask forgiveness.

Enter Jesus.

Babies are born free of sin or moral flaw. As they explore their world, we teach it to them. You say "no" to an infant, it just giggles or cries, without comprehension.

Except for Catholics, where there is Original Sin. Jesus forgives that which you didn't even do ,or think, or even have awareness about. A little convenient, isn't it?

There's an entire thread on here about it, so I won't derail your thread further. But thanks for engaging.
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
January 20th, 2018 at 11:50:10 PM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: Face
Knowing that far end of the bell curve of pain, and living in a time when something like the knowing and willful wish to die with dignity for these types is something which is banned, leaves me feeling that things need pushing in the other direction.
Should have Dr. assisted, in all the 57 states. Not only can people not access death with dignity with physician assistance, it looks like they want to take away pain medication also.

This discarding of unwanted fetal tissue and the arguments about it, makes me think of what they called new guys in Viet Nam, fng's. We all know, what it stands for, and the thinking behind it. There is much more expense in growing someone to adult age, in protein, and schooling and housing etc. How can we be engaged in multiple wars right now, with millions killed since just 91.

Madelleine Albright when asked if the 500,000 kids that died in just Iraq because of sanctions was worth it, replied in the affirmative.

The world or the west don't seem to give that much never mind. I can't separate the value of those lives, as being less important than terminated pregnancy's. It is hypocrisy on a global scale.

There is very little invested in beginning fetuses, to get attached to versus, the lives of all those killed from birth to adulthood.

This link [of many] says 17 thousand kids starve to death every stinking day. Fifty thousand expected to starve in Yemen this year alone, and we are bombing the hell out of them. I just can't have the same heart ache for fetuses that may or may not live to be adults. The comparison is ridiculous.

https://www.worldhunger.org/world-child-hunger-facts/
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
January 21st, 2018 at 12:21:41 AM permalink
boymimbo
Member since: Mar 25, 2013
Threads: 5
Posts: 732
Quote: FrGamble
You can argue that but the facts, logic, and science do not support you. At what point has the baby grown enough that it becomes a person with the right for life? Why not at its beginning?


Please quote me the bible verse where it states that life begins at conception. Please give me numbers on partial birth abortions performed. Please give me statistics on reasons why abortions occur after week 21. Please support your feelings with statistics. Because you can't. You come back with horror stories without understanding the back stories as to why they occurred. You support the fiction that these decisions to have late term abortions are taken lightly, like a joke, without a shred of evidence to support you. And that's what I abhor about the pro-life movement, or any movement that uses tactic to scare people into compliance.

I believe that life begins at conception. I also respect that others do not feel the same way and that I have no right to impose my views on others by trying to change the law of the land or block others from seeking services legally available to them. If a pregnant woman bothered to ask me for counsel, i would tell them my views.

I support an argument of "life begins at conception" to ban all abortions. Never mind the late term, mid-term, early term. Ban them all, except in life-threatening situations. If you don't want the baby, too bad. Put the mother in jail for the abortion and charge her with murder one, two, or manslaughter based on the evidence. That's how I feel. Lock her up.

But then you have to provide choices for alternatives. Adoption services so that the babies go to homes where they are wanted to raised. Free health care for those who are pregnant to ensure that the unborn are properly cared for and brought to term, if this life is so important. If human life is so sacred, then the pro-life movements (churches) should be setting up adoption clinics next to abortion clinics and hand out pamphlets explaining the choice and how your adoption clinic will provide the mother with prenatal services and low cost services (you know, what Planned Parenthood also provides). I understand that a few churches have these services. Great. Do more.

But the "horribleness of it"? The instruments? All of the partial birth bull-hooey that's been banned for the last 15 years. The late term abortions that still occur because the life of the mother is in trouble or the quality of life of the child would be so poor (the baby is not viable?). Give me a break. All abortions are horrible. Trying to distinguish between life at trimester 1, 2, or 3 should be bullcrap to you or to anyone who believes abortion is murder.

If you believe that abortion is murder once viable, then you have to believe that life begins at conception, because it does. When sperm meets egg and attaches to the uterine wall, you have a new life.

There are alternative opinions which are valid. Rape. Medical and health reasons. And recently, the right for women to choose whether they want to bring a child into the world and raise it for 20 years. The opinion that human life begins when the baby can breathe outside the woman's body, or at an arbitrary point earlier or later. Roe v Wade passed over 50 years ago, providing a balance between a woman's life to terminate a pregnancy, to allow health services to legally exist to save woman's lives, and defining a point in time for Amercans when "life" begins. As a Christian, I do not concur, but I am not going to force my Christian views on another person. They have to live with their decisions.
January 21st, 2018 at 12:38:11 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: boymimbo

I support an argument of "life begins at conception" to ban all abortions. .


I don't support that at all. What I do support
is people taking responsibility for their actions
and not getting pregnant with unwanted
babies in the first place. Banning abortions is
not the answer to anything. It's akin to
Prohibition, and look how well that worked out.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 21st, 2018 at 12:43:04 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
I suppose if you can put someone in jail for life for murdering a 30 year old, you could also put someone in jail for life for the heinous murder of a few fertilized cells. After all, there is supposedly even more potential cut short.

Of course that's where the whole analogy fails me. I just can't reconcile that much value to a clump of cells vs someone at 30. If it makes sense to a god, fine, doesn't make sense to me.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?