March for Life 2018

Quote: FrGamble

I knew I was asking for trouble. But for real as long as you are against killing babies in the I say come March.

Giving a fair answer without a bunch of hemming and hawing is all I really expect. Not that I agree with you on a lot of things.

And that seems like a fair answer, given the positions you appear to hold.

Quote: FrGamble

Freedom and truth is what drives the anti-abortion movement. Look at countries that limit freedom and suppress truth and you see so much abortion and even gender selected abortion that it is destroying their society.

Look at countries that are free such as the USA
Abortion is common
Religion is what drives your movement
All the anti-abortion leaders are religious
Freedom is why we have abortions in this country
We are free to not follow your religion

Quote: terapined

Look at countries that are free such as the USA
Abortion is common
Religion is what drives your movement
All the anti-abortion leaders are religious
Freedom is why we have abortions in this country
We are free to not follow your religion

I think you like to tell yourself this to easily not think about the issue. Truly though it us science and logic that drives the pro-life movement.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you like to tell yourself this to easily not think about the issue. Truly though it us science and logic that drives the pro-life movement.

Why are all the anti-abortion leaders religious rather then atheist scientists?
Are the DR/Teachers at the Johns Hopkins medical school some of the leaders in the anti-abortion movement? Of course not
Its a religious cause
You want to prevent abortion among Christians, go for it. I could care less. None of my business
Just as what a couple decides on a pregnancy. Its none of my business
Don't force your religion on me

Quote: terapined

Why are all the anti-abortion leaders religious rather then atheist scientists?
Are the DR/Teachers at the Johns Hopkins medical school some of the leaders in the anti-abortion movement? Of course not
Its a religious cause
You want to prevent abortion among Christians, go for it. I could care less. None of my business
Just as what a couple decides on a pregnancy. Its none of my business
Don't force your religion on me

I didn't really think the Golden Rule or the respect for human life would be considered religious. I think everybody atheist or not agrees that we should do unto others as I would want done unto me. I also think that anyone realizes that just because a human life is inconvenient or not wanted doesn't mean we have the right to kill that person. What you are attributing to Christianity is much more universal than you realize.

I also again implore you to come up with a better reason to support abortion than it is none of my business. We all have a duty to speak out for the vulnerable and those who have no voice. Would you leave a slave owner alone because it was none of your business?

Quote: FrGamble

I also again implore you to come up with a better reason to support abortion than it is none of my business.

A higher rate of abortion leads to less public financial support and lower taxes. I'm all for it.

Quote: FrGamble

I think everybody atheist or not agrees that we should do unto others as I would want done unto me.

Not at all true. I, as part of my job, keep people alive in conditions that in NO WAY would I want 'done unto me'. If I would follow your theory I'd be letting many patients die. So I do unto others as THEY want done unto themselves. Which is why I also would not stop a woman from getting an abortion, even if I was against abortion.

Quote: FrGamble

I also again implore you to come up with a better reason to support abortion than it is none of my business. We all have a duty to speak out for the vulnerable and those who have no voice. Would you leave a slave owner alone because it was none of your business?

I have a few, but I suppose most (probably all where you specifically are concerned) won't matter (no offense intended).

It is fact that folks who have "accidents", and I'm talking mostly of the young and poor, are something like 400% more likely to find themselves stuck in a lifetime of poverty by the act of having a child too early. I understand and agree that personal responsibility comes into play. However, sex, unlike, say, dropping out of school, irresponsible spending, and other factors that cause financial strife, is a biologic imperative that can be and is beyond the ability for some folks to properly control. Between this biologic imperative and the natural state of young folk being stupid, accidents happen. I suppose in this case, since I don't view a clump of a couple, four, eight or a few thousand cells as "human", I see it as the correct choice, the merciful choice, to save some stupid youths from a lifelong sentence of strife. That would include mercy for the eventual baby, who too often would not find itself under the umbrella of love and family, but rather a situation of often one parent, stretched to breaking, and years and years of struggles that will negatively affect it until it's its turn to continue the same sad cycle. This is a non medical reason for abortion, and while I personally find it unfortunate and sad, I find it a better option than the alternative.

Medically, I find it dangerous and nearly evil to ban abortion, unless you think it should be my legal right to go demand a needed heart from my mother right now (an example, my heart is perfect =p). It is universal law that one has a right to defense, and weird medical reasons are included. If my schizophrenic father has an episode and comes at me with a weapon (an example, he's not crazy), I have a right and I daresay responsibility to defend myself, up to and including killing him. I see that as a terrible, heart wrenching thing, an unfortunate circumstance, but one which exists. So do I find it exactly similar in the case of a "bad" fetus. The complications from a bad birth are exactly as random and medically caused as my father's episode, so too must the options be similar.

My beliefs will go further when medical knowledge catches up. Despite my support, I am one of those "pro-choice but anti-abortion" folks. I find them sad and unfortunate at best, and downright abhorrent at worst. But what of when talking about those "touched by God"? I have a lot of experience with the developmentally disabled, as I know SOOPOO has as well. But while I'm not talking about rounding up all the Down's and Aspy's and retired hockey players and sending them off on an ice floe, man, I have seen some humans that hurt to look at. I'm talking folks who are about as human as the sludge that grows in my pond in late summer. Those without any seeming ability to live, other than what serves for our biological clock. Those who live in world of darkness and silence without the ability to even be aware of it. Those who have no thoughts, no feelings, no ability to control any single facet of their being, sometimes including the life support functions. And those for whom every second is nothing but pain, a pain which they cannot understand and cannot communicate. Not to go full Hitler in this place, but I question the reason for their existence. Please know that I really have had thousands of hours of experience with these folks, and I am not talking about a majority or even a large minority of these differently abled folks. But some... dude, I've seen gut shot deer with a better quality of life and higher potential for success than some of these folks. I want to shoot them now for no other reason than mercy. If med tech allows to catch these examples before they grow the systems that allow them to feel the pain that's coming, then hell yeah. Get out the scooper. A ban on abortion in this case I find pure evil, no different than a PETA freak keeping some mangled, diseased, cancer riddled pet because they "refuse to kill" based on extremist beliefs.

We could probably find some common ground on partial birth. The only reason I rarely talk about them is because what little I know I found to be so repugnant that I stopped looking, and am therefore pretty ignorant on the topic. With the exception of a surfacing medical condition that wasn't or couldn't have been caught, I see no reason to wait until the baby is fully formed, only to birth it and let it suffocate on the table. I assume there must be something I'm missing, because I cannot, literally cannot, believe that what my interpretation is is actually legal and performed.

That's it for now. Good to see some good debate so far. And enjoy yourself, FrG =)

Quote: FrGamble

I also think that anyone realizes that just because a human life is inconvenient or not wanted doesn't mean we have the right to kill that person.

It's about responsibility. Where does
responsibility for your actions end.
For many it ends with killing an unborn
human just because you think you can
do whatever you like and there are no
consequences. It's the ultimate selfish
act, taking a life because you can't control
your impulses. It's not a crime now, it's
not a sin because sin is a silly made up word.
But you do have to live with what you've
done, and the point is to conduct your life
in such a way that you never have to get to that
point of no return.

Thank you, SOOPOO.

Thank you, Face. Truly outstanding post.

FrG,

So much well-said above, including from you.

I'm going to stay out of this for now, as I find it fascinating to read men debating abortion. Not in any way meant to be patronizing, no matter your positions. But no one can separate my opinion from being female, so I'll stay out of it, for now at least.

There is something that seems unrelated on the face of it, but it actually is extremely pertinent. And unmentioned until now.


Birth control and sex education leads to dramatically lower abortion rates. If the Church were truly interested in significantly decreasing abortion, they would be strong proponents of responsible practices by people who understand the consequences. Yet the Church continues to keep their people ignorant and apart from practical prevention.

To me, anyway, this calls your stated rationale for opposing abortion into question. Instead, it indicates a hidden agenda of creating a larger flock, and a strong base of guilt and sin as a means of controlling that flock as it grows.

I read the recent Jesuit statement on life. You all reaffirmed your strong stance against abortion. But your influence and fight against responsible birth control and education DIRECTLY increases unwanted pregnancies by millions every year. How is that not gross hypocrisy and social manipulation?