March for Life 2018

Quote: boymimbo

I don't support the social condition of the parent(s) for a reason to abort. There are plenty of successful people who start from very poor conditions.

This is why I have problems with
Face and his 'fate' diagnosis. Who
are we to decide the fate of another,
or even decide what it might be.
It's just another excuse we use to make
a problem we created go away.

Quote: DRich

A higher rate of abortion leads to less public financial support and lower taxes. I'm all for it.

We were talking earlier about being in the business of humanity, which is what Scrooge realized he should have always been in. Your comment here reminds me of the comment that haunted him when someone asked him to help the poor people of the city, "they should do it (die) and decrease the surplus population."

Face your posts are always very good and thought provoking. My response to your post would be as follows.

I think your major point hovers around the criticism I hear all the time about pro-life people. Others say that they are not really pro-life, but rather just pro-birth. After the birth of the baby the same people that forced the mother to have the baby are no longer around or worse they are calling her now a whore and cutting her funds for healthcare. I think this is a very strong critique and that is why the pro-life movement has to be whole and entire. It has to be what is often called the "seamless garment of life". You can't be pro-life and not care about healthcare. You can't be pro-life and not care about poverty and injustice or the environment. I was stuck at the March for Life that the opening invocation by an Orthodox bishop never once mentioned abortion. It covered the whole gambit of issues that effect the quality of life of those who find themselves in the scary and overwhelming position of an unplanned pregnancy. One of the speakers was a Sister of Life. This religious order exists to house mothers who have no where to go and to help them through delivery and in raising the child. There are many, many other groups that are truly pro-life and realize that the work is just beginning after the birth of the child.

In regards to the clump of cells you do not recognize as a human person you are simply wrong. Science shows us that this developing human being is unique and different than the mother. You seem to almost describe the developing baby as a parasite that a mother has a right to defend herself against. This flows into perhaps not also seeing the humanity and dignity of those who suffer with things such as down syndrome or much worse disabilities or deformities. I might not have the experience you have, but in my work I do help out at many place that care for the poorest of the poor and the sickest of the sick. These are religious homes, group homes, hospitals, and most profoundly families. You paint a very bleak picture for the minority of those who are very, very, seriously disabled. I feel your empathy and share in the gut wrenching pain you feel for them. However, I am also able to see through this to a human being that while bearing a tremendous cross has a dignity and value beyond our imagining. We have the medical knowledge right now to care for them in ways that make them comfortable and I feel very strongly and get a little queasy when anyone talks about having the right, even well intentioned, to end their life.

Finally, what you have learned about partial birth abortion is as repungent and disturbing as you imagine. The fact that the democratic party and any organization like Planned Parenthood can support and defend this barbaric procedure is beyond belief.

Quote: FrGamble

The fact that the democratic party and any organization like Planned Parenthood can support and defend this barbaric procedure is beyond belief.

People can talk themselves into anything,
rationalize anything. I've read about the
guards and the Nazi's who ran the death
camps. They were monsters, but not to
themselves. They had all kinds of what
they considered 'good reasons' for killing
defenseless people by the thousands
every week. The talked themselves into
it, think about how scary that is. Just
like people talk themselves into partial
birth abortions.

Quote: beachbumbabs

FrG,

So much well-said above, including from you.

I'm going to stay out of this for now, as I find it fascinating to read men debating abortion. Not in any way meant to be patronizing, no matter your positions. But no one can separate my opinion from being female, so I'll stay out of it, for now at least.

There is something that seems unrelated on the face of it, but it actually is extremely pertinent. And unmentioned until now.


Birth control and sex education leads to dramatically lower abortion rates. If the Church were truly interested in significantly decreasing abortion, they would be strong proponents of responsible practices by people who understand the consequences. Yet the Church continues to keep their people ignorant and apart from practical prevention.

To me, anyway, this calls your stated rationale for opposing abortion into question. Instead, it indicates a hidden agenda of creating a larger flock, and a strong base of guilt and sin as a means of controlling that flock as it grows.

I read the recent Jesuit statement on life. You all reaffirmed your strong stance against abortion. But your influence and fight against responsible birth control and education DIRECTLY increases unwanted pregnancies by millions every year. How is that not gross hypocrisy and social manipulation?

Another good critique not so much of the pro-life movement but specifically the Catholic pro-life movement that is both against abortion and contraception, which seems very much like a contradiction.

The key is sex education. Sex education that fights against sex as recreation or as something we do for fun with those we feel are attractive. The natural order of sexual activity is to have babies. We need to fight against a porn saturated culture and reestablish the radical notion that you only have sex with those you desire to have a baby with, because even with using contraceptives this could very well happen. The false notion of "safe-sex" is another cause of unplanned pregnancies. People feel protected from any consequences and who always gets hurt, women. I work with college students a lot and even those who do not get pregnant have their hearts broken. The hook up culture hurts everyone, but in particular it hurts women.

Sometimes people say this is unreasonable. Teenagers and young men and women can't control themselves and they are going to have sex so arm them with dangerous artificial hormones and the false security of condoms. Meanwhile the STDs skyrocket and the spiritual and emotional parts of us suffer along with our physical health. We are better than that, and so are our young people and adults for that matter. I believe in the goodness and virtue of people and that they can control even the strong desires of lust that effect us all. I don't want to lower the bar because of the harm I have seen that does. I want to keep the bar high and help people to reach it.

Finally, I am greatly disappointed in your misunderstanding of Christianity if you think anything is meant to create guilt or sin as a means of controlling anyone. My religion is all about freedom from guilt and sin, it is why Jesus came and it is why He loves us unconditionally. The only agenda is helping people to realize their worth and dignity and encourage them to live up to their high calling. Nothing could be more freeing and liberating.

Quote: FrGamble

Sex education that fights against sex as recreation or as something we do for fun with those we feel are attractive. .

Good luck with that, it's human nature.
What do you think prostitution is,
paying for a good time with an
attractive woman that you would have
zero chance of getting otherwise. Been
around for thousands of years, there's
a reason it's called the worlds oldest
profession.

Quote: FrGamble

Face your posts are always very good and thought provoking. My response to your post would be as follows.

I think your major point hovers around the criticism I hear all the time about pro-life people. Others say that they are not really pro-life, but rather just pro-birth. After the birth of the baby the same people that forced the mother to have the baby are no longer around or worse they are calling her now a whore and cutting her funds for healthcare. I think this is a very strong critique and that is why the pro-life movement has to be whole and entire. It has to be what is often called the "seamless garment of life". You can't be pro-life and not care about healthcare. You can't be pro-life and not care about poverty and injustice or the environment. I was stuck at the March for Life that the opening invocation by an Orthodox bishop never once mentioned abortion. It covered the whole gambit of issues that effect the quality of life of those who find themselves in the scary and overwhelming position of an unplanned pregnancy. One of the speakers was a Sister of Life. This religious order exists to house mothers who have no where to go and to help them through delivery and in raising the child. There are many, many other groups that are truly pro-life and realize that the work is just beginning after the birth of the child.

In regards to the clump of cells you do not recognize as a human person you are simply wrong. Science shows us that this developing human being is unique and different than the mother. You seem to almost describe the developing baby as a parasite that a mother has a right to defend herself against. This flows into perhaps not also seeing the humanity and dignity of those who suffer with things such as down syndrome or much worse disabilities or deformities. I might not have the experience you have, but in my work I do help out at many place that care for the poorest of the poor and the sickest of the sick. These are religious homes, group homes, hospitals, and most profoundly families. You paint a very bleak picture for the minority of those who are very, very, seriously disabled. I feel your empathy and share in the gut wrenching pain you feel for them. However, I am also able to see through this to a human being that while bearing a tremendous cross has a dignity and value beyond our imagining. We have the medical knowledge right now to care for them in ways that make them comfortable and I feel very strongly and get a little queasy when anyone talks about having the right, even well intentioned, to end their life.

Finally, what you have learned about partial birth abortion is as repugnent and disturbing as you imagine. The fact that the democratic party and any organization like Planned Parenthood can support and defend this barbaric procedure is beyond belief.

Partial Birth Abortion is rare. It was outlawed by the federal government in 2003. It's a political football that the pro-lifers grab onto to show the horrificness of murder. It is only performed now when the life of the mother is in danger or the baby itself is not viable. Yet it is mentioned by pro-lifers as something that is a regular occurrence when in fact it is extremely rare.

But the CDC (2012) reports that 91.4% of abortions are performed in the 1st trimester, and for me, one can argue that what is growing inside the mother belongs to the mother and let God make the judgement there.

7.2% are performed between weeks 14 to 20 meaning that 1.4% are performed after week 20. Most states prohibit abortion occurring after the baby is "viable". Only seven states do not have this restriction: Only seven states (DC, AS, CO, NH, NJ, NM, OR) do not have that restriction.

The fact is that late-term abortions mostly, for the great majority of people, occur for health reasons. It ain't no pleasure cruise and I don't believe many woman in their right mind would choose to abort their baby after carrying it for six+ months unless their health or the baby's health were in jeopardy.

And this is why PP takes the position that they do. They're dealing with facts, not feelings. Roe v. Wade guarantees access to abortions. Steadily, right leaning bible-thumpers have been pushing against the law of the land, and they're entitled to do so, but someone has to remind lawmakers of the law.

Quote: FrGamble

In regards to the clump of cells you do not recognize as a human person you are simply wrong. Science shows us that this developing human being is unique and different than the mother.

Since I believe that personally deciding that removing anything from your body isn't an act of murder, maybe we can just do "removals."

A removal is exactly what it says. Something is surgically, if necessary, removed. No attempt is made to further harm it. Just what it takes to remove it.

Why we can even specify that for as long as it lives we will not deny it any care for as long as it lives. This won't do you much good in the early trimester.

Quote: boymimbo

But the CDC (2012) reports that 91.4% of abortions are performed in the 1st trimester, and for me, one can argue that what is growing inside the mother belongs to the mother and let God make the judgement there.

You can argue that but the facts, logic, and science do not support you. At what point has the baby grown enough that it becomes a person with the right for life? Why not at its beginning?

Quote:

7.2% are performed between weeks 14 to 20 meaning that 1.4% are performed after week 20. Most states prohibit abortion occurring after the baby is "viable". Only seven states do not have this restriction: Only seven states (DC, AS, CO, NH, NJ, NM, OR) do not have that restriction.

Translating these harmless seeming percentages into numbers when looking at the million or so abortions every year is ghastly.

Quote:

The fact is that late-term abortions mostly, for the great majority of people, occur for health reasons. It ain't no pleasure cruise and I don't believe many woman in their right mind would choose to abort their baby after carrying it for six+ months unless their health or the baby's health were in jeopardy.

The fact is that these abortions are not done for health reasons of the mother and certainly not the child's. If you think partial birth abortion is bad read up about the other ways in which these children with beating hearts, nervous systems, arms, legs, fingers, toes, etc. are cut apart in the womb and extracted.

Quote:

And this is why PP takes the position that they do. They're dealing with facts, not feelings. Roe v. Wade guarantees access to abortions. Steadily, right leaning bible-thumpers have been pushing against the law of the land, and they're entitled to do so, but someone has to remind lawmakers of the law.

Even if you have never heard of the Bible, anyone would be against these acts if they truly understood the facts. How you can defend them is beyond me. I am dealing with feelings and they do drive me to educate others to learn the myths about these abortions because the facts will cause you to feel a very different way I assure you.

By the way many more of these partial and other late term abortions happen than any of the common objections that are often being pushed by pro-abortion folks like the cases of incest and rape. Why is that? Doesn't it seem a little hypocritical of places like PP and the Democratic party to be constantly bringing up the truly rare case of rape and incest while declaring anyone mentioning late term abortions to be crazy?

Quote: rxwine

Since I believe that personally deciding that removing anything from your body isn't an act of murder, maybe we can just do "removals."

A removal is exactly what it says. Something is surgically, if necessary, removed. No attempt is made to further harm it. Just what it takes to remove it.

What if we removed someone's heart or their brain? i would call that an act of murder wouldn't you? What if you removed someone from the home they need to live for nine months in the winter and threw them outside with nothing? Would you call that murder?