World Youth Day in Poland

Quote: Dalex64

No, I think poorly of the people today who pick and choose what is truth and what is hyperbole, what really happened, and provide word-twisty explanations of why those things can't/don't happen now and what it really meant then and what it really means now.

Maybe we are both doing that. You seem to be doing it to me and I seem to be doing it to you. Or put another way I am trusting in the authority of the Catholic Church and you are trusting in your own interpretation? How much Greek do you know? How many centuries have you thought about these things? How much are you considering the Church Fathers and Tradition of the early followers of Christ?

Quote: FrGamble

Once He dies, he is risen from the dead.

That is a horrible, nonsensical plot twist. It implies the main character is either a masochist or a manipulative sociopath.

Quote: Nareed

That is a horrible, nonsensical plot twist. It implies the main character is either a masochist or a manipulative sociopath.

I don't follow you. The disease is deadly and even if you take it from the person who was originally sick from it, you cannot escape the consequences. We are not talking about just some on the surface type of suffering that make this cure possible, we are talking about the Father and the Son truly making the ultimate sacrifice.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe we are both doing that. You seem to be doing it to me and I seem to be doing it to you. Or put another way I am trusting in the authority of the Catholic Church and you are trusting in your own interpretation? How much Greek do you know? How many centuries have you thought about these things? How much are you considering the Church Fathers and Tradition of the early followers of Christ?

My interpretation?

What if I told you I was Jewish? (I am not) How would that change what you just said?

Quote: FrGamble

We are not talking about just some on the surface type of suffering that make this cure possible, we are talking about the Father and the Son truly making the ultimate sacrifice.

What sacrifice? The guy is still alive and unharmed, and then uses the notion that he chose to suffer as emotional blackmail against you.

It's not a coincidence that every clarification you make for Christianity, makes it that much clear how sick and twisted it really is.

Quote: Dalex64

My interpretation?

What if I told you I was Jewish? (I am not) How would that change what you just said?

I don't think it would change much at all. If you wanted to speak intelligently about the New Testament you would either need to trust in some authority and have a really good working knowledge of ancient Greek, ancient near east history, Church history, etc.

Quote: Nareed

What sacrifice? The guy is still alive and unharmed, and then uses the notion that he chose to suffer as emotional blackmail against you.

It's not a coincidence that every clarification you make for Christianity, makes it that much clear how sick and twisted it really is.

So dying is not a sacrifice?

Blackmail? What are you talking about? Let me get this right. Someone chooses to die for you and then you call it emotional blackmail. What is a guy supposed to do? You seem hell bent on charging God with not doing anything in the face of our disease. Then when God takes the disease from us and dies for us you say it is emotional blackmail. Make up your mind and maybe if you would try to understand the Gospel instead of unsuccessfully trying to force sick and twisted interpretations on it you will see how foolish you are being.

Quote: FrGamble

So dying is not a sacrifice?

Everybody does that, big deal. 100,000+
even did it on the cross. Besides, you
say Jesus isn't dead at all, so what's
your point. It's like somebody giving
all their money to charity while knowing
they'll win the lottery tomorrow. Where
is the sacrifice.

Now you'll go on about how poor old god
lowered himself to become one of us and
blah blah blah. It really doesn't make the
point you think it does.

Quote: FrGamble

So dying is not a sacrifice?

Not for an all powerful entity who doesn't stay dead. Such a being, if it existed, could not make sacrifices. No matter how much it were to give up, the power remaining would still be infinite. We've been through this before.

In or near the last episode of Babylon 5's fourth season, Susan Ivanova is gravely injured and lies dying in a ship's infirmary. Marcus Cole, who is in love with her, abandons his post and takes her to Babylon 5, where he employs a method that allows him to give up his life to save hers (never mind the McGuffin used). Ivanova recovers. Cole dies.

That can be called a sacrifice, as Cole gave Ivanova literally everything he had.

If he had been an omnipotent being who could resurrect at his leisure, his dying moment, when he leans towards the unconscious Susan and with his last breath says "I love you," would have been meaningless.

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Blackmail? What are you talking about? Let me get this right. Someone chooses to die for you and then you call it emotional blackmail.

See above. When Susan realizes what Marcus did for her, she has to come to terms with it (alas the real world intrudes and the actress left the show then over a salary dispute). But suppose instead she had someone like, oh, you, telling her day and night to worship and love Marcus, because he died for her.

I don't know what I'd do in such a case, I know what Ivanova would do. It would probably include the station's fusion reactor, and it would certainly be very unpleasant.

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What is a guy supposed to do?

Either come down here and help, or leave us alone. As he doesn't exist, I very much suggest he try the latter.

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You seem hell bent on charging God with not doing anything in the face of our disease. Then when God takes the disease from us and dies for us you say it is emotional blackmail.

Sin is not a disease. It barely is anything at all. We've also been though this before. Original sin is the sine-qua-non of Christian emotional blackmail.

Quote: Nareed

Sin is not a disease. It barely is anything at all. We've also been though this before. Original sin is the sine-qua-non of Christian emotional blackmail.

It worked when the world was a superstitious
ignorant place. I can almost guarantee that
a very small number of those people that
were at the youth event really believe the fairy
tale parts of their religion. It shows in how
many show up for weekly mass, compared
to 40 years ago. The Church is more of
a casual tradition now, rather than something
it's members take seriously.