Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

Someone paid the ultimate price so you could receive it totally free.

That also fails to make sense.

If you believed Jesus died and stayed dead, as it happened if he did exist, then he would have paid the ultimate price. But as you believe he resurrected as easily after you'd get up after tripping on something, then what price was paid? Nothing was taken from him and he was in no way diminished. But if he stayed dead, then he can't be the one to save you from himself, can he?

Quite a conundrum.

You know the story of Job. Do you think because at the end he received more than he had before he did not go through any suffering?

Quote: FrGamble

You know the story of Job. Do you think because at the end he received more than he had before he did not go through any suffering?

Job didn't choose to be the object of Jehovah's bullying. And in the end he had far less than he did when the story started, or do you forget his all-loving god murdered his wife and children?

Jehovah did rape a young woman to impregnate her with himself(*). That was out of his own free will.


(*) I've always wondered how Christianity avoided making incest a sacrament.

Quote: FrGamble

Nothing could do that.

I'll find out a way. There has to be one.

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However I will say the more you show a misunderstanding of what love is and the nature of truth; the more I seem to love and care for you.

You know, maybe it's a mistake to bite the hand that feeds you, but it's not as big a blunder as not biting the hand that's feeding you poison.

Quote: Nareed

That also fails to make sense.
If you believed Jesus died and stayed dead, as it happened if he did exist, then he would have paid the ultimate price. But as you believe he resurrected as easily after you'd get up after tripping on something, then what price was paid? Nothing was taken from him and he was in no way diminished.

We keep coming back to this. I keep asking
exactly what this 'price' was that Jesus paid.
It can't be dying on the cross, that worked
out really well for him. He got up a couple
days later and hung out with his buddies
for 40 days, then went straight to heaven
and sits next to god. That's a pretty good
deal that none of the other 100,000+ people
who were crucified got. And Jesus knew this
was going to happen, he was god after all.

So I ask again for the 100th time, what price
did he pay that we're all supposed to be so
grateful for.

Quote: Nareed

Job didn't choose to be the object of Jehovah's bullying. And in the end he had far less than he did when the story started, or do you forget his all-loving god murdered his wife and children?

Maybe you don't know the story as well as you pretend to?!? You should read the ending again and while you're at it review who is the instigator in this story about God always being with us in the midst of our suffering. God permits evil to happen to Job and if you know the story of Jesus Christ I think you will recognize many similarities.

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That was out of his own free will.

You are very ignorant of Scripture. After Job reread the Annunciation in Luke's Gospel and hear the Angels greeting and the response of Mary. "Be it done unto me according to your Word." This fiat is the yes that Mary offers in freedom and full of grace. The pregnancy was a miracle, remember "born of a virgin." I always find it funny that when I debate with Atheists in person I always ask them just to get a sense of what I am dealing with if they can name the four Gospel writers. About 75% can't do it and yet they feel very free to tell me what the Scriptures say and to interpret it. Very Interesting.

Quote: Evenbob

So I ask again for the 100th time, what price
did he pay that we're all supposed to be so
grateful for.

God became man, suffered and died for us. Let that sink in for a bit. God, the unlimited and all powerful creator of the entire universe became one of us. He came as a helpless infant. He lived in obscurity and poverty and was like us in all things but sin. He suffered abandonment, torture, fear, pain, and the reality of death. He limited Himself willingly to experience these things in their fullness, He prayed in the garden that this cup of suffering pass Him by and He cried out on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me." Again don't forget for an instant that this was God the eternal one who gave up everything. Yes there was the Resurrection and of course love will always be victorious over hate, you don't have to be God to know that at least intellectually. However, for you to ask what price did he pay is for you to not really understand what the Incarnation is really about.

Quote: FrGamble

I always find it funny that when I debate with Atheists in person I always ask them just to get a sense of what I am dealing with if they can name the four Gospel writers. About 75% can't do it and yet they feel very free to tell me what the Scriptures say and to interpret it. Very Interesting.

I still can, but I'm sure I've forgotten quite a bit of stuff we had in Church and Sunday school.

Based on looking over papers I actually wrote when I was kid, the brain is apparently capable of obliterating the last trace of some memories. I wrote the papers myself and still don't remember some of them.

Quote: FrGamble

God became man, suffered and died for us. Let that sink in for a bit. God, the unlimited and all powerful creator of the entire universe became one of us. He came as a helpless infant. .

So he did what humans do naturally,
knowing that he would rise from it
and never know death at all. Seriously,
for this we're supposed it be grateful?
God lowered himself to become one
of us, the people he created, and this
is what you build a religion around?

I fail to see the sacrifice, there is none
there. Too bad you can't look at it with
an unbiased eye. It's like the old stories
of a king who puts on the rags of the
poor and lives like a pauper for a week.
He knows full well he'll go back to being
the king, but wants everybody to be in
awe of what he did.

This is the story you're wanting us to be in
awe over. Hard to feel anything for god or
the king, they really did nothing at all.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe you don't know the story as well as you pretend to?!?

Job didn't lose his wife and children?

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You are very ignorant of Scripture.

On purpose.

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After Job reread the Annunciation in Luke's Gospel and hear the Angels greeting and the response of Mary. "Be it done unto me according to your Word." This fiat is the yes that Mary offers in freedom and full of grace.

Consider the power differential between Jehovah and every other being in the universe Consdier, too, the capricious and malicious actions Jehovah has engaged in throughout history; he doesn't just kill people, he makes them suffer. Then consider, what will this powerful, nasty god do if a mere mortal refuses to take the divine tool?

But even if it wasn't rape, impregnating a woman with yourself is the ultimate act of incest. You're, apologies Face, fucking your mother so she'll give birth to you. Deus filius is one thing, but this is sick.

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remember "born of a virgin."

Again, I get the feeling you expect that I'll fall on my knees and something.

I'm not impressed at all. All myths claim all sorts of unlikely events and scenarios. Alexander and Hatshepsut both claimed to have been fathered by actual gods. And they're not even mythical.