Simple question?

Quote: rxwine

So untwist the scripture

Quote:

Matthew 7:13-14 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

It sounds serious. And you've agreed that things that sound serious were meant to be taken seriously.

So the above is not about destruction versus some getting eternal life and how few will get there? God doesn't lie right? Then what is it about? Please use actual support material that is IN the scriptures not rewritten by Catholics. If you can't do the last part I'll assume it can't be done and you're simply twisting the meaning yourself without support.

For me, the big clue is both god doesn't lie and right there he said few will enter. It's not god may be fudging on this when god says it. Not unless god lies.

Okay lets just focus on the chapter of Matthew from which you take the verses we would like to untwist. A much better or more through Scriptural study would place this chapter in the context of the Gospel. It would also take into consideration the other synoptic Gospels comparing them and the other verses that would give us a more complete picture of the issue. Nevertheless we can look first at the section immediately preceding, verses 7-12.

Here we find the ultimate in God's generosity and mercy. Ask and it will be given you. Anyone who seeks will find and if you knock it will be opened to you. You could take this passage to say the exact opposite of what you claim the verses about the narrow gate are saying. Putting these two extremes together is a way of tempering both. It is neither too easy nor too difficult to be saved. If you are seeking, no matter how narrow the gate may be, you will find it. If you knock the door to escape destruction will be opened to you.

I'm not saying that Jesus is not serious, He very much is. This is the end of the Sermon on the Mount and this practice of hard teachings preceded by more pastoral teachings is something we can see through this three chapter long sermon. If you cut out little pieces here and there you can make Jesus seem to teach universal salvation or salvation for just a few. I suggest you read the entire sermon on the mount, Chapters 5-7 and let me know your impressions.

Here is a great reflection on the issue that is worth a listen to:

Quote: Dalex64

Ok, so if no one can know the hour that the lord will return, and that is the basis of the advice that Paul gave the Corinthians, and we are not to disregard that advice, then how do you disregard the advice that single people should remain single?

I don't know if disregard is the right word but rather putting his advice in context. Do we really think that all people who are single should remain single? The answer is obviously no, even St. Paul says that if you feel called to married life and desire it then by all means enter into marriage.

Quote:

Thought of another way, what information do we have now to suggest that the lord's return is not imminent, so the advice given to the Corinthians can be safely disregarded?

Again let's get away from the term disregard. We do know that every second brings us closer to the Lord's return and every breath we take brings us personally one closer to meeting the Lord ourselves. That knowledge should help us strive to live the advice of Paul which is really to do what we feel the Lord may be calling us to and not delay.

Quote:

That leads me back to one of my original questions - if we know that the lord's return is not imminent, what other advice in the bible should be disregarded, because it was given in the context of the lord's return being imminent?

Whether we think the Lord's return is as imminent as St. Paul and many of the early Christians believed it to be I don't see how this would lead us to disregard anything at all in the Scriptures.

Quote: FrGamble

I actually got thru 4min of this pointless
nonsense. I thought he was going to
describe what kind of saddle the camel
who was trying to get thru the eye of
the needle was wearing. It reminded me
of my Christian days and how much
time Christians spend on meaningless
minutia like this. It drove me up the walls,
and they were always soooooo serious
about it. This nitpicking stuff runs their
lives, if you want to call that living.

Quote: FrGamble

Whether we think the Lord's return is as imminent as St. Paul and many of the early Christians believed it to be I don't see how this would lead us to disregard anything at all in the Scriptures.

Because the advice is clearly stay single if you are single, stay married if you are married, and marry only if you must. The "only if you must" part, paraphrased, is very clear.

I can't think of a better word than disregard. Ignore, set aside, defer.

If the timing of the lord's return isn't an issue, then why is Paul's advice ignored, and why did you point out that his advice was in the context of the lord's imminent return?

This is in conflict with the words from you that I have quoted in this post.

It's like "A Few Good Men"
I can't find the exact quote, but it is something like "If you ordered that Santiago wasn't to be touched, and your orders are always followed, then why was Santiago's life in danger?"

If whether or not the lord's return is imminent does not change whether or not we follow the advice in the bible, and Paul gave advice in the bible, then why do you not follow the advice?

Quote: Dalex64

If whether or not the lord's return is imminent does not change whether or not we follow the advice in the bible, and Paul gave advice in the bible, then why do you not follow the advice?

You're not going to win with logic. If
anything in the NT was logical, there
wouldn't be a religion. You cannot beat
nonsensical non logical mumbo jumbo
superstition with logic. You can lose your
mind trying to deal with these people
on a logical basis. And if you persist, they
will try and convince you that you're the
crazy one.

Quote: Evenbob

Good ol CS Lewis. You left off the preamble to
your quote:

"My contention is that good men (not bad men) consistently acting upon that position [imposing “the good”] would act as cruelly and unjustly as the greatest tyrants. They might in some respects act even worse."

They might indeed act even worse. They
beat you down with their good intentions,
bludgeon you with what's 'right'. It's their
self appointed calling in life to be better than
everybody else, to pile the guilt on your
shoulders that no matter what you do, it's
never quite good enough in the eyes of their
silly arrogant made up god.

That's my interpretation in a nutshell, and what I see with this "good" that FrG speaks of now. It's analogous to the mother who constantly wonders if her son found someone, or greets random strangers in an attempt to "find someone" for their single son. It comes from a good place, sure. But damn if it doesn't cause a whole bunch of problems. The son doesn't want a relationship, doesn't want the hassle, doesn't want anything, yet now an issue is thrust upon him for no other reason that someone else doesn't like it, or doesn't understand it. He may very well be happy as a clam, and now he has this problem to deal with that not only was not of his own doing, but was saddled upon him by one he loves? There's a word for this, though I can't find it now. But I do remember country songs, and "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Quote: FrGamble

Face, when you come calling bro you bring it!

I don't know what to say and I should probably take some time to really pray over your heart cutting post. I don't want to the arbiter of what is wrong and right, good or bad. I only want to proclaim what I believe to be true based on my faith not just in the Scriptures but in the Church that the Risen Lord Jesus founded. The problem may be that this Church and its fallible ministers like me imagine that this teaching needs to extend to all the world. I get so caught up in what I have experienced as true and life giving/changing in my life and the lives of countless others I am too eager to foist it onto others who don't understand it, haven't experienced, and want no part of it. In trying to defending why and what my Church believes I make it seem like everyone should immediately recognize how true and wonderful it is. It wasn't seemingly true and wonderful to me when I first discovered it, it seemed like the cross. Now that it has lead me to the Resurrection I forget far too often those first struggles I had with the challenging teachings of Jesus Christ.

Can I backtrack here and really say that I don't want and shouldn't expect Nareed or anyone else to say, "Okay you are right." Nareed has her belief system and is living her life the way that brings her, I hope, happiness and peace. Who am I to call that unnatural or disordered? However, what usually begins these fruitless back and forths is a claim that what I believe or what my Church believes is motivated by some hatred or bigotry. This is what gets me and why I feel the need to speak out and defend the Lord I love and His teachings. They are not meant to torture or cause anyone pain and suffering. They are meant to and do lead to an awesome happiness and peace as well. However, that doesn't happen unless someone first comes to know Jesus is baptized and believes in Him. It can't be forced on anyone through reason and sure as hell not on some internet forum.

The best I can hope for, and I hope I haven't ruined this already, is to try to help people see that while they might be disgusted and offended by what I believe and the Church teaches - it is not taught because God hates gays or the promiscuous. Think of it as misguided and based on ancient fables, what have you, but please do not say it is because I or anyone else is a bigot or prejudiced.

Another problem is the Church's influence and desire to change public policy for everyone. This is what leads to the imaginary war that we all are needlessly fighting. I think this is brought about by the same fear we both have. One side is fearful that the Church will force them to live the way we teach and the Church is afraid that we will be forced to give up our teachings and how we want to live. Maybe a firm recommitment to religious freedom would be the peace treaty we are all seeking. Allow the Little Sisters to not provide contraception to their employees and allow Catholic adoption agencies to try to place children first and foremost in homes with both a mom and dad and allow me to in Church only witness the marriages of heterosexual couples. The Church of course should also not try to use or influence secular enforcement of religious teachings upon people who do not believe or are not members of the Church. This is not to say we shouldn't still engage in cultural 'warfare' and evangelize and try to show people why we believe what we believe. If we were free to live what we believe without being labeled using disgusting labels I imagine evangelization would not be done by words but rather by how we live our lives. As St. Francis famously said, "Preach the Gospel always and only when necessary should you use words." That is the medium we are forced to use here on this forum and it is very frustrating for all. I don't see Nareed and her happiness and she doesn't see me and my service to people and my efforts to fill their lives with the same happiness. If I could see her I would never want to cause her pain and we would hopefully just play craps and talk more about stopping Donald Trump than gay marriage. I also don't think she would want to stop my joyful efforts to strengthen and help those I work with either.

Thanks Face, lots to think and pray about.

I can't find the skill to chop this up, so I'll just grip it and rip it.

A bit of the problem here is the same problem I addressed recently with terapined about groups. When you join a group, when you represent the group, you sort of lose your identity. You become an extension of ALL of that group. I will say that you strike me as odd, because you say and claim things I have heard no other Catholic say or claim, and you're a preacher, to boot. At least as far as the religious go, you seem to be more liberal and... I dunno, I hesitate to say "open minded" because that's not the exact adjective I'm looking for. But certainly less rigid. Like, me asking you about my fate. Here I am, sinnin' without a care, actively denying the Father, yet you say I'll likely gain admittance to Heaven, albeit after a stay in purgatory. I've never heard that. Ever. But no matter what you say, you'll never come out from the church's shadow. One man's good deed just cannot erase millennia of oppression, violence, and yes, evil. You can try, you can be the change you want to see in the world, but it'll take many thousands of years of a nearly spotless record to undo what has already been done. I know EB and Nareed have hammered endlessly on this subject. I'm not savvy like Nareed is on the history of desert, but I can still see it in stuff I am good at. I saw the church's evil with the indigenous peoples of the America's, for one. Perhaps you will argue that Manifest Destiny was not a position of any of the churches many denominations, and you'd be right. But it was nonetheless carried out by God fearin', church going Europeans, in the name of God. It goes into the pile.

And don't think, despite that I only show up to jump into the anti-God pile, that I think all of your mission is junk. As I've said before, I dig the Jesus. I may scoff at all the claims of magic that surround him, but his lessons are ones I hold and have held for many, many years. I just think, if Jesus came now, he's be on the internet endorsing my own belief system, the one I summed up in those four words - "Don't be a c#$%". I don't think he went all that much further with it. I don't think there is a NEED to.

When I look at the Bible, I see exactly what EB sees. I see men using ideas to control people. I see ideas that are meant to restrict or damage those who are not in their favor. Dalex, too, makes some ripping good points, pointing out all of the logical breakdowns found in the text. This stuff is the "fluff" I mention so often. Can't eat shellfish, or meat on whenever, or whatever that fake fasting stuff is you do. It's nonsense. You don't need "magic" to make this work. You don't need some supernatural being to give you your power, man. It's YOU.

How do you convince yourself it's all real? You have spoken many times about allegory and such, how some things in the Bible just cannot have happened literally. Doesn't that make you wonder how much else is a parable? Just look around you and see how we view things now, look in this very forum. Is BLM a good thing or bad? Is it about police brutality or is it a hate group? Kinda depends on who you ask, doesn't it? You know any Muslims? Some here do and think they're the cat's ass. Some here do and view them as a mortal enemy. Who is right? Sort of depends on who you ask. Imagine terapined and rxwine rose to incredible power. You think life as we know it would change a bit? If not, contrast it to AZD and EB running the show. You think those two worlds would look anything alike?

You're taking life as viewed from nomads of 2,000 years ago. That's just a weird way to live to me. The fact they were "foreign", the fact they were uneducated by our standards, none of that automatically negates everything they say. "Do unto others" was good advice then, it's good advice now. Probably was 10,000 yrs ago and likely will continue to be 10,000 yrs from now. But every single thing should be run through your own personal filter, and you damn sure better chuck the chaff.

The Jesus, I'm with you. There might be some chaff to chuck, but damn if he didn't nail some things that should still be taught, passed on, encouraged. Be kind and helpful to those less fortunate. Forgive, lest to poison yourself with hate. Even the more poetic ones that require some translation still apply today. Whether you're removing planks from your eye or thinking of casting pearls before swine, I can tape those to some issue I'm likely going through right now. It is Good. But there's just so much chaff to chuck, and, unfortunately, it has been woven into the dogma that keeps your house afloat.

You'll continue to tow the church line. I think you have no more choice in that than I do in being an atheist. But I hope something I have said has been helpful. Perhaps next time you are faced with something, you'll save a little computing power for FrG the man, and don't go into it solely as FrG the church. Could be you see a gay man being gay, or a lady's man being a lady's man, or just some good ol' fashioned sinners doing some good ol' fashioned sinnin'. Just think about it when you see it. As I hope I showed using my relationship with Ash, all that sinnin' blossomed me into one hell of a better man than I was before her, and brought not one single drop of regret, pain, or sorrow. I cannot explain what a boon it was to my life to come to know that woman, and your belief system would have me cast into hell for it.

I wish you luck. I personally could not reconcile those two ideas and come up with anything that made them make sense.

Quote: Dalex64

If whether or not the lord's return is imminent does not change whether or not we follow the advice in the bible, and Paul gave advice in the bible, then why do you not follow the advice?

You are free to follow the advice. It is pretty clear that Paul is speaking just his opinion and recommendation, as he says "not as a command". There are many other places where Paul and others extol the beauty of marriage, including Jesus Himself. If he would have said stay single because the Lord commands it and only get married if you can't do that then I could see what you are getting at. This whole chapter is couched in the apostle giving us his fatherly advice to a community who had some serious issues with lust and marriage. I have visited Corinth and it had a huge number of ruins that were temple prostitutes and brothels. I think Paul was worried about this community's problem with controlling their lust and couple that with his idea that the Lord was coming back next week or so led him to give the clearly labeled advice he gave.

Quote: FrGamble

Here we find the ultimate in God's generosity and mercy. Ask and it will be given you. Anyone who seeks will find and if you knock it will be opened to you. You could take this passage to say the exact opposite of what you claim the verses about the narrow gate are saying. Putting these two extremes together is a way of tempering both. It is neither too easy nor too difficult to be saved. If you are seeking, no matter how narrow the gate may be, you will find it. If you knock the door to escape destruction will be opened to you.

I don't see as how these bits temper the other.

What I see is a couple "prescription" statements, and a couple "here is how it's going to be" statements.

A prescription statement is like "take two pills every 4 hours" or "Follow the Yellow Brick Road".
-Ask and it will be given to you
-Anyone who seeks will find
-Knock and it will be opened.

And the "here is how it going to be" statements are facts and/or lessons you're not expected to question.

-It's hard for a rich man to get to heaven as a camel through the eye of a needle
-The road to destruction is wide and easy, the good road is narrow and difficult and few will make the journey.

Those second statements aren't "how to's", like the first, they just state what the odds and results are. I just don't see where you are suppose to question the lesson or fact of the second statements. They appear to be just giving you the landscape of what you're dealing with and how it's going to end up for everyone.

BTW, I think Pope should probably send out a newsletter to the rich patrons, that very few are getting into Heaven. It's only right to do so.

rxwine, forgive me if I don't put much stock into your hermeneutic theory. You really need to consider all the other teachings of Christ and the NT about how God's will is that all will be saved. Again you are deeply flawed in your interpretation by not knowing the Lord Jesus personally and experiencing the gift of unconditional forgiveness and love. If you did you would understand hyperbole and its purpose in the teachings of Christ.

Quote: FrGamble

rxwine, forgive me if I don't put much stock into your hermeneutic theory. You really need to consider all the other teachings of Christ and the NT about how God's will is that all will be saved. Again you are deeply flawed in your interpretation by not knowing the Lord Jesus personally and experiencing the gift of unconditional forgiveness and love. If you did you would understand hyperbole and its purpose in the teachings of Christ.

Will you can get away with calling me flawed, a non-believer, but you have plenty of other Christians that you are denouncing who see it much the same way as I do.

Though I don't know their specific explanations, I know they hold the same viewpoint about few into Heaven.