Did you ever notice?

Quote: Evenbob

You think you see a creation, so you go looking
for a creator.

A pretty fundamental question to ask about things is where did it come from? Is there something wrong with wanting to know that?

Quote:

Was this big bang the only
one there ever was? You have no idea,

Positing a multiverse or a big crush followed by another Big Bang doesn't let you escape from the fundamental question I am asking. No matter how many big bangs there may or may not have been, science right now points to only one, it is still clear that there is something and that something did not create itself therefore there must be a cause that began the big bang or the series of big bangs or the multiverse, whatever.

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it could be one of an infinite number.

Actually it couldn't. Not only the laws of thermodynamics make that impossible but also the fact that there cannot be an infinite regress. I think we have covered this many, many times. Remember the train analogy? You can't have a moving train without an engine somewhere.

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You are basing your whole belief in god on
scant information.

I think you meant to say that YOU are basing YOUR theory that there is no God on absolutely no information.

Quote:

What's more likely and
infinitely more reasonable, is the universe
has always been here and always will be,
in one form or another.

You like that word infinite don't you? Anyway what you are suggesting is the opposite of reasonable and I hope you can begin to see why.

Quote: boymimbo

I believe in the separation of church and state, which is also contrary to the bible, and don't have problems with laws and rules that contradict biblical teachings. Other Christians don't feel the same way.

I'm glad to know this.

Now, how do you feel about Christians preaching against certain types of people? Like Jews, for example, saying they're all going to hell for refusing to "accept" Jesus? Or anyone who is LGBT? Or Muslims?

Quote: FrGamble

However, just by the use of natural reason a rational person will be able to recognize that if something came into existence it must have a creator or cause.

Why? What is your proof for this assertion? One can assert anything, but there must be some proof of it, or some way to test it.

Further, you're either multiplying entities unnecessarily, as Sagan pointed out, or trapping yourself into an infinite regression.

See, if everything that exists requires a starting point and a creator, then the creator does, too. And its creator, and its creator's creator, etc.

If the creator does not require a starting point and/or a creator, then why does the universe require one? IF something can exist without a creator, why is a creator required? Why multiply entities unnecessarily?

Sagan wields Occam's razor like a sword. But that's because he didn't want to believe. He wanted to learn.

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This starting point would be beyond space and time and immaterial or spiritual.

Proof?

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It would also be all powerful holding within itself the power to create and sustain all that exists.

Proof?

I can "prove" anything easily if I start with the conclusion I want to reach and then rationalize the argument to make it fit. Rationalizing is a terrible mental habit, not the basis for an argument.

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Beyond proving that Jesus existed, that He has changed the world in ways no other human being ever could or will,

Jesus didn't change the world. His acolytes did. Jesus was too dead to do anything.

Given, too, that Jesus never wrote anything, and that there is a lack of sources other than the NT to corroborate he ever even said anything, much less what he said, it's entirely possible he was a charismatic figure manipulated by others for some reason. I don't believe that, but it's a possibility.

What's even more possible is Jesus said only part of what it's claimed he said, and the rest was filled in by the people who wrote the gospels; including in particular the notion that Jesus=Jehovah.

Can you prove this didn't happen?

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You must come to recognize the truth in His teachings and life and trust aka have faith in Him to come to belief.

To quote Robert Heinlein "You don't "got" to do anything but pay taxes and die."

Quote: FrGamble

However, just by the use of natural reason a rational person will be able to recognize that if something came into existence it must have a creator or cause. The universe, including all matter/energy did not cause itself to exist therefore it must have a cause. Eventually that cause must hold its existence in itself or we would just keep going backwards infinitely and nothing could then exist without a starting point. This starting point would be beyond space and time and immaterial or spiritual.

The current state of the Universe has done a pretty good job of predicting the Universe almost back to the beginning. But that doesn't mean normal analogies hold to the moment of the beginning where things are pretty unique.

Quote: FrGamble

A pretty fundamental question to ask about things is where did it come from?.

You have a terrible time grappling with
the idea that the universe has been here
forever. Yet you love the idea that your
god has no beginning or end.

Quote: Nareed

What's even more possible is Jesus said only part of what it's claimed he said, and the rest was filled in by the people who wrote the gospels; including in particular the notion that Jesus=Jehovah.

That's the conclusion 150 Bible scholars came
to in 1985 at the Jesus Seminar. Jesus didn't
say most of what's attributed to him, it was
made up later. These are their main conclusions:


Jesus of Nazareth was born during the reign of Herod the Great.
His mother's name was Mary, and he had a human father whose name may not have been Joseph.
Jesus was born in Nazareth, not in Bethlehem.
Jesus was an itinerant sage who shared meals with social outcasts.
Jesus practiced faith healing without the use of ancient medicine or magic, relieving afflictions we now consider psychosomatic.
He did not walk on water, feed the multitude with loaves and fishes, change water into wine or raise Lazarus from the dead.
Jesus was arrested in Jerusalem and crucified by the Romans.
He was executed as a public nuisance, not for claiming to be the Son of God.
The empty tomb is a fiction – Jesus was not raised bodily from the dead.
Belief in the resurrection is based on the visionary experiences of Paul, Peter and Mary Magdalene.

The Vatican went ballistic over this, it was
very comical to witness.

Quote: Evenbob

He was executed as a public nuisance

That would be some irony. Committed followers like to build-up the mythical character of their religious leaders over time. From nuisance to son of God.

Pick anyone really. MLK was a fine person (better than many of us), but people will gloss over the human aspects pretty fast of any failings and just concentrate on his mission. They certainly don't recite the failings during commemorations and celebrations of these people.

Quote: rxwine

That would be some irony. Committed followers like to build-up the mythical character of their religious leaders over time. From nuisance to son of God.

There were many cults flourishing in the Roman empire at the time. It's something that often accompanies a collapsing system. The Republic had been in the process of collapse then by about a century, steeped in frequent bouts of civil war.

Nor were claims to divinity unique to some Judean sect. This was also the time the first few emperors were deified and the cult of the Caesars got going. In some societies claims to divinity were so frequent they could hardly be called noteworthy.

Quote:

Pick anyone really. MLK was a fine person (better than many of us), but people will gloss over the human aspects pretty fast of any failings and just
concentrate on his mission. They certainly don't recite the failings during commemorations and celebrations of these people.

The Reverend King worked towards a noble goal and he achieved a large measure of success, at great cost to himself.

As a man, he undoubtedly had flaws and made mistakes. But the former can be overlooked and the latter can be learned from, which is the only reason to preserve a mistake.

Quote: Evenbob

You have a terrible time grappling with
the idea that the universe has been here
forever. Yet you love the idea that your
god has no beginning or end.

Knowing what we know today I think any sane person would reject the idea that the universe has been here forever. Any material thing including energy or even space and time cannot create itself, I think that is a pretty self evident principle. Therefore if you go back far enough you have to find an entity that is not created but rather holds creation in itself. This would be a non-contingent being. I've tried to explain this need with the example of a train that is moving and since I haven't heard any questions from you about it I assume you understand that a bunch of boxcars can't move themselves, no matter how many there are. There needs to be an entirely different thing called an engine that can move for the whole train to move. Notice that the engine does not need someone to move it, it is able to move itself that is important so you don't go asking why the engine doesn't need another engine. Anyway, I hope you see that if there is to be anything at all, which there surely is, then their necessarily has to be a spiritual (non-material) being who has existence in Himself and is truly eternal beyond space and time and all powerful in order to explain how all things came into being. Please feel free to ask questions rather than just rudely assert what is not true or can't be true. Also I would kindly ask again to stop trying to understand what I believe or love. First understand the origins of the universe and then you can tackle the much simpler task of understanding me.

Quote: Nareed

As a man, he undoubtedly had flaws and made mistakes.

Like JFK, King was a serial womanizer,
he constantly cheated on his wife
with all kinds of women. Most of his
doctoral dissertation was plagiarized.
He accepted money from Communist
groups. His real name was Michael,
he chose Martin Luthor because it
sounded good. There is even evidence
he stole a good part of the I Have A
Dream speech.