Did you ever notice?

Quote: boymimbo

to connect to their deity that they believe in. It is not silly to them.

It should be. How do you connect
to a god who isn't there. Quite
easily, in fact. Never underestimate
the gullibility of the human mind.

If we're ever going to have a truly
peaceful world, organized religion
needs to disappear.

It is pretty easy to connect to things that are bigger than yourself. Have you ever looked out at the weather outside and be cheered by a sunny day or sullied by rain? Have you ever loved or loathed? Ever thought that you were lucky or unlucky? Ever have a feeling that turned out to be false? Ever had an idea based on observation that turned out to be truly false? Ever thought you had a system that could beat roulette though it's been proven mathematically that it possibly can't?

The fact is that an idea that a spiritual being has been overseeing us has been with us since the beginning of civilization. A belief in God has arguably led to nation-building and community building that has been massively beneficial to the world. Now, I will maintain (unlike Fr) that there is no definitive proof of said deity. Yet people still flock to God, because it gives them something beyond this world to hope for.

98% of organized religion today is peaceful. The other 2% would be attacking us anyway because our way of life is quite different to them.

A belief in santa claus and the easter bunny has made children happy for generations, and has arguably enhanced society through happy children.

Is god just the easter bunny for grown-ups?

You say a belief in god has led to great things. Which god? Does it matter? Does it matter that if any one of the religions is right, that the others must be wrong, since almost all of them claim they are right and everyone else is wrong. That also means all but at most one or two are perpetuating lies and telling people to believe in things that are not true.

If no one can prove they are right, everyone is perpetuating lies as they have no factual basis in which to back their claims.

Therefore proof of a diety's existence is critical to knowing if you believe in something that is true, or if it is just wishful thinking that santa claus is real and there is something beyond this world to hope for.

If there was scientific proof of a deity's existence this world would be a far different place. There isn't any.

But to your point, let's say for a second that I had a group of people who really loved me and decided that no matter what, they would ensure that every Christmas Eve, Santa Claus would inexplicitly leave presents for me under the tree. Now everyone else would tell me that Santa is fake but I would point out the evidence every year under the tree. My friends (who are probably in on it) would setup video surveillance etc and try to prove me wrong but someone in that group of people would manage to make it appear that Santa still existed.

My point is that our mind is capable of many things. Objectivity is shaped by experience. Have you ever been close to someone who is truly delusional, who believes that someone is talking to them, or believes that the government is watching them? I have. They really believe it and their brains are shaped to believe it. Heck, my mind could be telling me I'm typing this on a keyboard, when in fact I'm a vestibule in the Matrix, what do I know?

So is God just the Easter bunny for grown ups? Maybe. But does it matter? As long as I am not pushing my belief system down your throat (and I don't consider my words on this forum pushing) or forcing you to accept what I say is truth at gunpoint, then NO, it doesn't matter one iota. Does it make me live a better quality life? Yes, I believe it does? Does that make me weak? Perhaps. Do I care? Nope. What I believe matters to me. It's up to you to choose if what I say matters, and we tend to congregate amongst people where what we say and what we feel matters: aka friends and sometimes family.

I would protest as much over the forced Christianization of Iraq as I would over the forced Muslimization of America. No one should be forced to think something or to be threatened to lose one's life or status due to a religious belief. This is why radical Islam must be quashed in Iraq and Syria now, just as radical Christians in the dark ages needed to be quashed as well.

To me, my religion quotes Jesus in John as evidence that belief in Jesus is the only way (and therefore all other religions and beliefs are wrong), but that belief is predicated on believing on what Jesus said as truth, which, given that it's a 1950+ year old text written 20-30 years after the life of Jesus was over, puts doubt into the statement especially by non-believers. Do Christians believe that they are liars? No. Do Muslims believe that they are liars? No. Do Buddhists believe that they are liars? No. Is somebody lying? Probably, unless there is one God who is polytheistic, in which case, Jesus lied. Do we know centuries later on who is lying? No. We choose to ignore science unless it is flying right in our face (aka the Universe is 13.9 billion years old, not 6,012 years old).

Historians in the Jesus project have classified Jesus' life and statements into what they believe are truths, probable, not probable, and falsehoods, based on the available historical evidence at the time. For a Christian, the bible is key, and most of all, the set of beliefs as summarized in the Apostle's Creed. "

Now Dalex, Nareed, and Bob, Rxwine too, etc will call me a fool. So be it. In 0 - 60 years I'll be dead, and in 100 years I'll be completely forgotten (as will everyone else here as well)... so have at it please.

Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow.

If I end up before the general Christian conception of god one day, I'm going to ask him about FrGamble's assertion that god produced evidence on Earth that people would recognize. At best we have evidence that also falls under things which could also be fakes, untrue, or magician tricks.

If FrG gets hit with a lightning bolt, he'll know what happened (afterwards). I may get the worst of it for being atheist, but he'll likely get it for trying to make people believe that nonsense.

I separate faith and facts. Faith is belief without actual evidence. That doesn't mean a thing won't turn out as true, but it is not based on evidence.

Faith is what you have when your ship at sea is sunk and there is no evidence you will be rescued in time while you float around with a life jacket. It has nothing to do with facts essentially. It's wishful thinking at its mildest, and desperation in the example.

Quote: rxwine

If I end up before the general Christian conception of god one day, I'm going to ask him about FrGamble's assertion that god produced evidence on Earth that people would recognize. At best we have evidence that also falls under things which could also be fakes, untrue, or magician tricks.

If FrG gets hit with a lightning bolt, he'll know what happened (afterwards). I may get the worst of it for being atheist, but he'll likely get it for trying to make people believe that nonsense.

I separate faith and facts. Faith is belief without actual evidence. That doesn't mean a thing won't turn out as true, but it is not based on evidence.

Faith is what you have when your ship at sea is sunk and there is no evidence you will be rescued in time while you float around with a life jacket. It has nothing to do with facts essentially. It's wishful thinking at its mildest, and desperation in the example.

In the other thread I am trying to get my mind around what people believe about atheism. I think I need to clarify what I have been trying to say about my belief in God. You cannot prove God's existence in the same way you can prove a mathematical theorem or the existence of something in a laboratory. However, just by the use of natural reason a rational person will be able to recognize that if something came into existence it must have a creator or cause. The universe, including all matter/energy did not cause itself to exist therefore it must have a cause. Eventually that cause must hold its existence in itself or we would just keep going backwards infinitely and nothing could then exist without a starting point. This starting point would be beyond space and time and immaterial or spiritual. It would also be all powerful holding within itself the power to create and sustain all that exists. Even many who call themselves atheists will concede this point or something similar to it. This is all I am saying in regards to God. Atheism doesn't hold water. However, many people are then agnostic and for this we must turn to some of the thoughts of boymimbo to experience the revelation of Jesus Christ to know His truth.

Beyond proving that Jesus existed, that He has changed the world in ways no other human being ever could or will, that the Bible is by leaps and bounds the most attested to ancient writings in a time when oral tradition was the strongest way to communicate messages I can't really prove to you that He was the Son of God. You must come to recognize the truth in His teachings and life and trust aka have faith in Him to come to belief. I hope that clears things up and gets me off the hook with God and rxwine.

Quote: FrGamble

if something came into existence it must have a creator or cause. .

This is how all superstition gets started. You
think you see a creation, so you go looking
for a creator. Was this big bang the only
one there ever was? You have no idea, it
could be one of an infinite number. You
are basing your whole belief in god on
scant information. What's more likely and
infinitely more reasonable, is the universe
has always been here and always will be,
in one form or another. No need for a god
in that scenario. That's why you can't find
him.

Quote: boymimbo

So is God just the Easter bunny for grown ups? Maybe. But does it matter? As long as I am not pushing my belief system down your throat (and I don't consider my words on this forum pushing) or forcing you to accept what I say is truth at gunpoint, then NO, it doesn't matter one iota.

Incidentally, I find it hilarious every time a Christian says "iota." :)

Have you considered in what ways you may be forcing your religion on others?

I'm sure you don't go around holding a gun to people's heads saying "Convert or else!" But what laws do you support which are based solely on Christian morality or practices? That is, laws that do not protect the rights of anyone, but merely enforce Christian beliefs. How about laws that use religion in order to make certain people second class citizens (if that)?

Of course, the effect you alone have is tiny. The effect of millions of nice, reasonable people like you, all of them good Christians, can be oppressive.

I believe in the separation of church and state, which is also contrary to the bible, and don't have problems with laws and rules that contradict biblical teachings. Other Christians don't feel the same way.

Quote: FrGamble

You cannot prove God's existence in the same way you can prove a mathematical theorem or the existence of something in a laboratory.

You cannot prove any god's existence the way you can prove anything else in the universe.

Curiously this applies to things like conspiracy theories, paranormal beliefs, supernatural beliefs, astrology, dianetics, etc. Coincidence?

Quote:

However, just by the use of natural reason a rational person will be able to recognize that if something came into existence it must have a creator or cause. The universe, including all matter/energy did not cause itself to exist therefore it must have a cause.

Repeating an unwarranted assumption does not make it true.

But let's try "mere" reason.

Human beings are an amazingly diverse bunch. Even people raised in the same culture, at the same era, even in the same family, vary widely in their views, tastes, habits, and so on. More important, what can cause someone solace, is a source of irritation to another. Even when it comes to physiological matters, things that may be beneficial or inimical to some, are deadly to others (and if you don't believe this, ask someone with a peanut allergy about it).

Now, given these variations, how do you figure an all-powerful, all-knowing deity would think it wise to impose ONE, and only one, set of rules, beliefs, rituals, etc. on every single person on Earth?

Why do you think the first thing the established church did once it got power was to split in sects? Why do you think the splits just keep on coming? Why do you think no single religion, ideology, philosophy is immune from splitting?

I see two choices: 1) your god does not exist, 2) your god is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Charitably I'd opt for the first choice. The second one carries all sorts of nasty, brutish implications for the people who practice any god-based faith.