Did you ever notice?

Quote: FrGamble

however I must say herein lies my major problem with Protestants.

Luckily modern society won't let the
Church do to Protestants what it
once did, in the name of god. I bet
you get a tear in your eye for the
'good ol days', though..

Does it not seem odd that the Vatican would name a telescope Lucifer?

http://www.arcticbeacon.com/greg/headlines/university-of-arizona-vatican-and-jesuits-name-new-telescope-lucifer/

From article; "There has been a great deal of speculation, among Vatican critics, why in the first place the Jesuit Order was allowed to build a huge stellar observatory on Mt. Graham in Arizona – on holy Indian ground – in cooperation with the state-run University of Arizona.
With the naming of Lucifer, critics claim the Vatican has showed its true colors, using God and Jesus as shills for their true master — Lucifer."

"For many Native American nations there are certain geographic places which have special spiritual meanings. These sacred places are often portals to the spirit worlds. For the Apache in Arizona, one of these sacred places is Mount Graham: this place is called Dzil Nchaa Si An (Big Seated Mountain"

"Following the declarations of the sacredness of Mount Graham by the Apache Survival Coalition and the San Carlos Apache Tribe, the Vatican in 1991declared that Mt. Graham was not sacred because it lacked religious shrines. Jesuit Father George Coyne, director of the Vatican Observatory, indicated that he could not find an authentic Apache who thought the mountain was sacred."

"Beginning in 1998, the University of Arizona began requiring Indians to obtain prayer permits before they crossed the top of Mount Graham near the University’s telescopes. The University’s prayer policy required that the permit be requested at least two business days before the visit and that it include a description of where on the mountain the prayers will take place. Only people who were enrolled members of federally recognized tribes were allowed to pray." bolding mine

Truths do not need one person, or millions to believe to substantiate them. It's IRRELAVANT. Heaver balls weren't found to fall faster, a finding true before it was actually tested. Millions knowing it doesn't make it more or less true. Or even if everyone forgets doesn't make it untrue. (except in discussions of philosophy where all principles of even knowing what is knowing is questioned, but people don't usually live their life trying to figure out if a door is brown or the color exists separately from the door)

By irrelevant, stop using it as an argument. it adds nothing.

I'm sure someone has mentioned that point before, but it's starting to drive me nuts seeing the number of people believe in something as some sort of evidence. It's evidence for how many people believe in something. That's about what it is useful for.

Quote: rxwine

but it's starting to drive me nuts seeing the number of people believe in something as some sort of evidence. It's evidence for how many people believe in something.

That's a god believers whole argument. I
believe it do it must be true. Followed by,
look at all the other believers, it has to
be true. This the sum total of their 'evidence'
that god exists.

I was in the casino today and saw a woman,
who from behind, could have been my wife.
Same hair, same build, same clothes. Even
though I knew full well my wife was at work,
part of my brain was telling me it was her,
when I knew 100% it wasn't. It was an amazing
feeling, I even had to look at her face to make
myself be convinced.

Imagine being told Jesus is your secret friend
all your life. Of course you believe it eventually,
you can feel him listening to your prayers and
see his work in your life. The ability for humans
to fool themselves is a powerful and frightening
thing.

SCREAM!!!

Surely you recognize the value of democracy where the majority does mean something. Surely you recognize that if everyone is driving down the road a different direction than you it would make you at least check your directions. Surely you understand the argument from authority in that some of the smartest most brilliant men and women in history have dedicated their lives to faith and talk about real experiences with the supernatural and with God. Again this doesn't mean or prove that belief in God is true! Let me say that again, the sheer number of believers in God does not make it true! However, you would be a fool to not see this and be a little hesitant to call us all fools and idiots.

The other evidence that I still have yet to hear a response to is where did the universe come from? Why is there something rather than nothing? We know that contingent things require a cause to explain there existence. The universe is contingent because it does not have existence in itself like all matter. Therefore it must have a first cause. This first cause cannot be contingent and must be a being who holds existence in itself. It must be eternal, beyond space and time, and it must be all powerful. This is I think fairly simple logic. If you don't have a first cause you fall into the impossibility of an infinite regress. I have not heard this refuted.

What I also have not heard is any evidence at all to support the claim of an atheist. Atheism seems to me simply blind faith. A decision to not believe in God just because someone finds the notion of God uncomfortable, had a bad experience, or simply chooses not to believe in God to make life more simple. Maybe this is what they have always been told but there is absolutely nothing in science or in logic that would lead one to make the positive claim that there is definitely no God. I find it very hypocritical to ask for evidence for the belief of God and not be willing or able to give any evidence for the opposite claim. Either become an agnostic or really think about these things.

Quote: FrGamble

I find it very hypocritical to ask for evidence for the belief of God and not be willing or able to give any evidence for the opposite claim.

If belief in the TRUE god or religion is so obvious why is it people crossed oceans to corrupt and poison the minds of people who already had supernatural beliefs, either in gods, idols, nature or whatever?

If it is was so obvious people wouldn't need to be persuaded or even forced to abandon their own beliefs.

You should leave people alone if it is so obvious. This last point is irrefutable, at least if you believe people can come to obvious conclusions on their own.

Quote: FrGamble

Again this doesn't mean or prove that belief in God is true! Let me say that again, the sheer number of believers in God does not make it true! ..you would be a fool to not see this and be a little hesitant to call us all fools and idiots.

At one time everybody in Europe
believed witches roamed the woods
at night. You would have been hard
pressed to find one person that
didn't believe this. These people,
all having the same belief, WERE
fools and idiots. This shoots your
theory right out of the sky..

Quote:

The other evidence that I still have yet to hear a response to is where did the universe come from? Why is there something rather than nothing?

There is zero evidence the universe hasn't
been here forever. You're making an
assumption, and setting your argument
around it. Quit doing that.

Quote:

Atheism seems to me simply blind faith. A decision to not believe in God

Totally wrong, as usual. I don't collect
stamps, but I never made a decision
not to collect stamps, I just don't. I
never made a decision not to believe
in god, I just realized one day that I
didn't. No evidence, there was never
a decision to make. Not believing in
god is still not a decision, I don't believe
because the argument is a nonstarter.

No problem with protestants as long as they don't declare themselves the arbiter of the bible, because that is the job of the catholics. No problem with protestants as long as they don't contradict the catholics. No problem with questioning things, except for the things that you aren't allowed to question.

No problem.