Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Evenbob

Most Bible historians, even the Jewish ones, now agree that Abraham and Moses didn't really exist as real people. They are symbolic and are religious archetypes. You know this, we've discussed it before

I completely disagree and I have a much longer list of Biblical historians/theologians that agree with me. You know this.

[edit: this is a strange thing for you to bring up because no matter what the faith of Abraham still explains what you are missing in your understanding of Christ.]

The faith of Abraham, the faith of somebody who didn't even exist? It's meaningless. Of course you have to believe that Moses and Abraham were real people, no matter the mounting evidence against it. They are symbolic religious archetypes, quoting how they felt about something is ridiculous.

When I was going to college 1970 I worked for Amway
loading trucks. Two guys would load a semi. Two of my
fellow workers we're Christians about my age and they
would always talk about their religion while we were
working. It was all new to me and sounded intriguing.

I went to a few of their meetings and started going on
a regular basis. Lots of pretty girls there. After about six
to eight weeks I started to question what the sacrifice of
Jesus was, they talked about it all the time. Nobody could
explain it to me in any way that made sense. I dropped the
subject because nobody wanted to talk about it much, they
just wanted me to shut up go along for the ride. I started
to see other holes in their religion and eventually dropped
out.

Here it is 50 years later and I've come to realize but
nobody can explain the sacrifice because nobody knows what
it was. Because there wasn't one. It's an urban legend that
grew in popularity as the myth of Jesus grew.

Quote: Evenbob

The faith of Abraham, the faith of somebody who didn't even exist? It's meaningless. Of course you have to believe that Moses and Abraham were real people, no matter the mounting evidence against it. They are symbolic religious archetypes, quoting how they felt about something is ridiculous.

Again they were very much real, but since you believe they were not why can't you learn from their stories? What about the lesson of Sisphisus that you mentioned earlier. Do you have to believe he was real to learn anything?

Quote: Evenbob

When I was going to college 1970 I worked for Amway
loading trucks. Two guys would load a semi. Two of my
fellow workers we're Christians about my age and they
would always talk about their religion while we were
working. It was all new to me and sounded intriguing.

I went to a few of their meetings and started going on
a regular basis. Lots of pretty girls there. After about six
to eight weeks I started to question what the sacrifice of
Jesus was, they talked about it all the time. Nobody could
explain it to me in any way that made sense. I dropped the
subject because nobody wanted to talk about it much, they
just wanted me to shut up go along for the ride. I started
to see other holes in their religion and eventually dropped
out.

Here it is 50 years later and I've come to realize but
nobody can explain the sacrifice because nobody knows what
it was. Because there wasn't one. It's an urban legend that
grew in popularity as the myth of Jesus grew.

What I find a whole lot more probable is that you weren't listening, being mean, stubborn, prideful, and knew that you were right no matter what they said.

Anyway, you had it just a few posts ago. I think you are just backpedaling and being argumentative now because you might have accidentally and against your best efforts might have actually learned and understood something.

Quote: FrGamble

Again they were very much real,

They very much were not. Even the
Jewish scholars are admitting the
Red Sea was never parted by Moses,
there was no 40 year trek in the
desert. Moses was an urban legend.

Abraham seems to be more of a
tradition than a real person. No
historian can even pinpoint with
any accuracy the time period in
which 'Abraham' would have lived.
He's urban legends and folklore
that was turned into a real person
over hundreds and even thousands
of years. As far back as 2000 BC.

Quote:

What about the lesson of Sisphisus that you mentioned earlier. Do you have to believe he was real to learn anything?

HUH? I'm the one who said the
whole POINT of a myth like that
was to teach a lesson. Not to
take the story as a real event.
Now you're asking me a question
like you never even read my post.

Quote: FrGamble

What I find a whole lot more probable is that you weren't listening, being mean, stubborn, prideful, and knew that you were right no matter what they said.

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong. I was
21, a total newbie and wide eyed and
innocent as you can get. I loved my new
found friends who were all so nice and
loving and accepted me so whole heartedly.
I loved the fellowship and the singing and
the hugging and listening to the
testimonies. I absolutely believed god
existed and Jesus died for us and he
was the son of god.

For about the first few months. Then I
slowly started to see the faults in the story
and started asking questions. I was
a big reader of SciFi and had a few
hundred SciFi books. At one point
the leader said all my questions were
coming from the devil and he asked
me to burn all my evil SciFi books that
were polluting my mind. We had a
ceremony and I did that, something
I deeply regret to this day. But I was
young and stupid and trusted these
people, they were so nice to me.

So you're totally 100% incorrect about
my attitude then. I was completely the
dumb innocent sheep waiting to be
slaughtered. Live and learn from your
mistakes is what happened.

Quote: Evenbob

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong. I was
21, a total newbie and wide eyed and
innocent as you can get. I loved my new
found friends who were all so nice and
loving and accepted me so whole heartedly.
I loved the fellowship and the singing and
the hugging and listening to the
testimonies. I absolutely believed god
existed and Jesus died for us and he
was the son of god.

For about the first few months. Then I
slowly started to see the faults in the story
and started asking questions. I was
a big reader of SciFi and had a few
hundred SciFi books. At one point
the leader said all my questions were
coming from the devil and he asked
me to burn all my evil SciFi books that
were polluting my mind. We had a
ceremony and I did that, something
I deeply regret to this day. But I was
young and stupid and trusted these
people, they were so nice to me.

So you're totally 100% incorrect about
my attitude then. I was completely the
dumb innocent sheep waiting to be
slaughtered. Live and learn from your
mistakes is what happened.

Wow, thanks Bob and I stand corrected. In fact it gave me a beautiful image of you when you were younger. I'm sorry if I only have one picture of you from our conversations, but I am very grateful there is another. It sounds like that group; as good as it might have seemed at the beginning might be part of the problem. I can't imagine many healthy Christian groups that would ask you to burn hundreds of SciFi books. I'm really sorry about that, it made me sad to read about it as a fan of SciFi myself. I wonder if their example and their close mindedness has led you to think all Christians think and act like they did to your honest, searching questions. Anyway...

I know you said myths exist to tell a story and you consider Abraham, Moses, and Jesus mythical type stories. I guess what I was asking above is that if the faith of Jesus connected to Abraham makes perfect sense to you as a myth, why wouldn't it make sense if it was real? If Sisthius (sp?) was a real person would it lose any of its meaning?

Quote: FrGamble

It sounds like that group; as good as it might have seemed at the beginning might be part of the problem.

But that's what you always say
when somebody has a problem
with the religion. My ex priest
friend quit the Church and you
blamed his seminary for poor
training. Alan Watts quit the
Church after being the chaplain
at the U of Chicago in the 40's
and you blamed his seminary.
I quit a Xtion group and you
automatically blame them as
for not being real Xtians. You
never ever fault the Xtian story
itself, ever. You drank the Kool
Aid and it would never even
occur to you to do that.

Quote:

Sisthius (sp?) was a real person would it lose any of its meaning?

So a real man continually rolls a
rock up a hill every day forever,
and we just accept the meaning
of that, and ignore the ridiculousness
of the story? A normal person
would chuck the whole thing out
a window. How many Superman
comics would be sold if DC insisted
he was a real person. Not many.

Once you start confusing myths
and legends with reality, you're
out there on a ledge all by yourself.

Quote: Evenbob

But that's what you always say
when somebody has a problem
with the religion.

I quit a Xtion group and you
automatically blame them as
for not being real Xtians.

I don't know Bob but my rule of thumb is if someone is for burning books there is something wrong.

Quote:

Once you start confusing myths
and legends with reality, you're
out there on a ledge all by yourself.

I agree. The Greek myth you mentioned is obviously written as one. The history of Abraham, Moses, and of course Jesus are clearly written as history. Those closest to those stories then and now know that they were true. Again I was just pointing out that you have said that the story of Jesus makes perfect sense to you as a myth. Then why does it not make sense for someone like me that knows it is true history? Anyway, I think you've got it. A few posts ago you showed good understanding of the faith of Jesus Christ and since you and I already know that you would never admit you are wrong that might be the best we can hope for.