Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Evenbob

What does that have to do
with a god/man myth and
god sacrificing nothing.

Well as far as I can tell you are all upset because you incorrectly think Jesus knew the future perfectly as God. You are convinced that outside of His perfect faith He actually knew exactly what would happen and no matter how painful it was He was just going through the motions looking forward to His vacation in Hades. Well if you know that we will live on in some other form and we really don't die, does that mean that you cannot sacrifice your life?

Also I was just thinking as I was writing this another objection you should think about. If it was all for show why go through the motions at all? Why suffer and die if you already knew what the outcome would be? Do you think that you are the first person to ever think about this question? Have you ever read the Church Fathers? Do you know or have read what St. Augustine, St. Anselm, St. Edith Stein, St. John of the Cross, or St. Thomas Aquinas have to say about this. I promise you they will give you much better and much more thought out answers than I can.

Quote: aceofspades

So you refute young Earth creationism but not creationism itself?

I don't quite understand your question. Obviously the universe and all non-necessary contingent things were created. That includes the Earth, but that really doesn't have much to do with religion as it does logic and reason.

Quote: FrGamble

Well as far as I can tell you are all upset because you incorrectly think Jesus knew the future perfectly as God..

He wouldn't have to know it
perfectly. He would just know
what the plan was and have
faith in it. Which is the way
it have been if this was real and
not a myth.

Quote: Evenbob

He wouldn't have to know it
perfectly. He would just know
what the plan was and have
faith in it. Which is the way
it have been if this was real and
not a myth.

By george I think you've got it!

Quote: FrGamble

By george I think you've got it!

So he did know the plan that he would rise from the dead in 3 days, and totally had faith in it because he was God. So there was absolutely no sacrifice, thanks for clearing that up finally. If you know you're going to be getting up and walking and talking and eating with your friends 3 days later it's not a sacrifice when you let yourself be killed. The entire purpose behind your religion is non-existant.

It was God's sacrifice supposedly, not Jesus. For God so loved the world etc etc. God made the token sacrifice, Jesus just went along for the ride.

Quote: FrGamble

By george I think you've got it!

How do you presume to know what either Jesus or God were thinking or what they knew?

Quote: aceofspades

How do you presume to know what either Jesus or God were thinking or what they knew?

They can't know, they can only guess. That's why there are so many off-shoots of Christianity. Nobody can agree on the guesses they make. This is the most vague religion in the world it can mean anything you want it to mean. I choose to have it mean nothing.

Quote: Evenbob

They can't know, they can only guess. That's why there are so many off-shoots of Christianity. Nobody can agree on the guesses they make. This is the most vague religion in the world it can mean anything you want it to mean. I choose to have it mean nothing.

I don't think you have ever questioned anything that Christians disagree on.

Quote: Evenbob

So he did know the plan that he would rise from the dead in 3 days, and totally had faith in it because he was God. So there was absolutely no sacrifice, thanks for clearing that up finally. If you know you're going to be getting up and walking and talking and eating with your friends 3 days later it's not a sacrifice when you let yourself be killed. The entire purpose behind your religion is non-existant.

It was God's sacrifice supposedly, not Jesus. For God so loved the world etc etc. God made the token sacrifice, Jesus just went along for the ride.

Oh boy, just when I think you've got it you but this mess together.

Did you read Genesis 22 yet? Probably not, but the point is He had the faith of Abraham. He had faith in God not because He was God, think about that for a second. It was His human faith based on His complete trust in the promise of His Heavenly Father. I think you are confusing faith with knowledge, which is a really strange thing for you, of all people, to be doing.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." Jn 3:16

Most Bible historians, even the Jewish ones, now agree that Abraham and Moses didn't really exist as real people. They are symbolic and are religious archetypes. You know this, we've discussed it before