Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Face

Certainly, but my issue isn't that the church asks, but rather the manner in which they were doing so. If the Salvation Army ding-a-lings outside Walmart, or St John's goes door to door, or the firemen clog an intersection with their boots, whatever. No problem. It's simple, honest. Pain in the ass sometimes, but honest.

What I'm seeing here is not that. Not only is it offensive that they lied (photoshopping to insinuate something happened which did not is absolutely lying), and offensive that they use psychological weaponry, it's both offensive that they think I or mine would be stupid enough to believe it, as well as offensive that they take advantage of the trusting, the simple, and the crazy. It bothers me when commerce does it, it angers me when the church does it. You can't claim to be the righteous and the just and stand for all that is good, and then do some back alley sleeze ball s#$% like this. You just can't. It'd be like your beloved father stealing from you. The bar of trust is just too high for hijinks, so any breach is automatic disqualification.

This is a very good example of why I've broken with the organized religions, especially charismatic sects. I am offended by their tax-free status, their constant begging, their deceptive ploys for the hearts, minds, and wallets of their sheep, and their smug con-men living high on the collective wages of their poor flocks.

As someone who also gets too much of this crap I agree with you. I think many of these groups are either not affiliated with the Catholic Church or only vaguely connected because they have some priest of Msgr. as the head of them. My constant advice to people is two fold. Pray about something that truly moves you and stay only focused on that issue. This issue might be Africa or children in 3rd world countries or Pro-Life and it might change every so often. Anything not directly connected to this passion should be thrown away right away. The second bit of advice is to do research about the group or ask your parish Church for help in vetting such groups. I have helped many shut ins sift through the barrage of junk mail. The things I look for are honesty, a real connection to the Church, and financial responsibility and accountability. There are many excellent groups out there worth supporting but the other groups water down the ability of them to truly help others.

The thing that sends me off in the red are the snail mail versions of chain letters. If I ever see anything that promises some type of special blessing or promising some type of spiritual blessing or financial success if you generously give I tell people under pain of sin to not give to them. The good news is everyone of this particular manipulative and deceptive groups come from other groups than Catholics. It still infuriates me and in my opinion does great harm to Christianity.

All of the arguments about the creation of the universe without god in one place.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/universe.html

Quote: Dalex64

All of the arguments about the creation of the universe without god in one place.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/universe.html

"If God doesn't need a cause because it is infinite, it is more likely that the natural Universe has existed forever and therefore doesn't need a cause."

I rest my case.

"if we say that God has always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed?"

Carl Sagan

Quote: Evenbob

"if we say that God has always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed?"

Carl Sagan

Because unlike God the universe is contingent and does not necessarily exist. Being material the universe needs a cause and cannot logically exist unless something began it. God holds existence in Himself and is truly eternal and infinite in a way the material world cannot be. I think I've used the analogy of the train in motion, it cannot be all boxcars because they cannot move themselves, there needs to be an engine.

Quote: FrGamble

Because unlike God the universe is contingent and does not necessarily exist.

You need to get better read on this
subject, it's far broader than you think.

Quote: Dalex64

All of the arguments about the creation of the universe without god in one place.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/universe.html

Even before looking it up it was clear in reading this website that the man had no philosophical training. I was also surprised to find out he is satanist. He needs to read some philosophy and religious history.

All he would need to do is to watch this brief 5 minute video: Leibniz Contingency Argument I highly recommend it if we are to intelligently talk about this issue.

His personal beliefs don't matter much to me.

On his website, he has gathered up the common arguments against god. He didn't invent them himself, and you can find them all over the web, even on non-satanist websites.

For one who talks so much about people not wanting to be "challenged" and embrace christianity, you are very quick to dismiss things that challenge your thinking.

I've gotten tired of finding and typing in these arguments one at a time. I found very little to disagree with on that site (I did not go to his satanism site) so I thought I'd save myself some time and just link to that collection of cogent and logical arguments.

Quote: FrGamble

Sure philosophy can explain this quite easily, you just necessarily need the concept of God which is reasonable enough.

Philosophy, too, needs to take facts into account. You cannot simply suppose this or that idea or concept and take it as given, without offering some kind of proof. Otherwise all metaphysical systems ever proposed are all as valid, and which you follow, if any, depends on subjective matters.

So where's your objective proof?

Quote:

Atheism neuters itself by unreasonably not allowing this possibility.

That's like saying mathematics neuters itself by not taking numerology into account.

Quote: FrGamble

Because unlike God the universe is contingent and does not necessarily exist.

What's your proof?

If tested, it should net you a Nobel Prize in physics.