Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Dalex64

For one who talks so much about people not wanting to be "challenged" and embrace christianity, you are very quick to dismiss things that challenge your thinking.

Maybe that is what has me so disappointed or upset about his website. It is a pretend challenge to theism. He doesn't even understand the true argument about the First Cause and wastes time refuting a false argument for God that is logical defeated by the first premise he attributes to it. I would charge him with presenting a straw man argument, except I am afraid he doesn't even realize it is a straw man.

It is frustrating that he spends so much time fostering atheism without first really understand the theist argument. I wonder if he actually watched the short video I linked to above if he might realize his error and become a theist.

Quote: Nareed

Philosophy, too, needs to take facts into account. You cannot simply suppose this or that idea or concept and take it as given, without offering some kind of proof. Otherwise all metaphysical systems ever proposed are all as valid, and which you follow, if any, depends on subjective matters.

So where's your objective proof?

The proof is logic itself. If something does not necessarily exist it needs to have a cause for its existence. There is a simple test to determine this - Is it possible that you, me, that tractor, the sun, the universe itself, all matter/energy, etc. might not exist? If yes, then it is contingent and not necessary and requires a cause.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe that is what has me so disappointed or upset about his website. It is a pretend challenge to theism. He doesn't even understand the true argument about the First Cause and wastes time refuting a false argument for God that is logical defeated by the first premise he attributes to it. I would charge him with presenting a straw man argument, except I am afraid he doesn't even realize it is a straw man.

It is frustrating that he spends so much time fostering atheism without first really understand the theist argument. I wonder if he actually watched the short video I linked to above if he might realize his error and become a theist.

Well, my problem with the 'God' premises are 3-fold:

1 - that the universe required a cause
2 - that a god existed before the universe and in an existential state outside of the laws of the universe
3 - that even if the universe required a cause, that god was the cause

let's add a 4th fold
4 - even if a god created the universe, that it was the christian God.

or even
5 - That there wasn't something else before the universe

Quote: FrGamble

The proof is logic itself.

Never.

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If something does not necessarily exist it needs to have a cause for its existence. There is a simple test to determine this - Is it possible that you, me, that tractor, the sun, the universe itself, all matter/energy, etc. might not exist? If yes, then it is contingent and not necessary and requires a cause.

Is it possible that you me, that tractor, the sun, the universe itself, all matter/energy, God, "God," Jehovah, etc. might not exist?

Of course.

Is it possible the universe has always existed?

Of course.

Anything is possible. Proof separates reality from possibilities.

It's possible for an electron to be right beside you one instant, and somewhere else the next. It's not possible for an electron to be beside you one instant, and be a luxury car the next. We know this because we have proof of what electrons are and what they can and cannot do.

Quote: Dalex64

Well, my problem with the 'God' premises are 3-fold:

1 - that the universe required a cause

Anything that doesn't necessarily exist requires a cause.

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2 - that a god existed before the universe and in an existential state outside of the laws of the universe

This is a logical requirement of the cause that we commonly call God. It must be eternal, all-powerful, outside of space and time (spiritual). If something is outside of the universe it stands to reason that it would be outside of the laws of said universe.

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3 - that even if the universe required a cause, that god was the cause

If you don't want to use the term God then you are free to either list the causes attributes but you will arrive at a entity we commonly refer to as God.

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let's add a 4th fold
4 - even if a god created the universe, that it was the christian God.

This is a different discussion that begins once we all recognize the existence of God.

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or even
5 - That there wasn't something else before the universe

No matter what was before the universe or a multiverse or aliens or anything - if it is contingent and not holding the reason for its existence in itself then you don't remove the need for the cause we call God.

Quote: Nareed

Never.

Always.

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Is it possible that you me, that tractor, the sun, the universe itself, all matter/energy, God, "God," Jehovah, etc. might not exist?

Of course.

Never.

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Is it possible the universe has always existed?

Of course.

Not if you trust logic.

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Anything is possible. Proof separates reality from possibilities.

It's possible for an electron to be right beside you one instant, and somewhere else the next. It's not possible for an electron to be beside you one instant, and be a luxury car the next. We know this because we have proof of what electrons are and what they can and cannot do.

You get this statement from logic. That A cannot be not-A. The same logic that says that a contingent thing requires a cause.

If there was something before the current universe, that doesn't agree with the current interpretation of the story of genesis.

Who founded the jewish faith, and told all of those stories before they were written down and assembled into the first books of the bible in the millennium before the birth of christ? People did. The truly simplest explanation is people made up a whole lot of stories to explain the universe around them, and now people believe the stories were divine inspiration.

You are also continuing to assume that the universe is a contingent thing, and could not have happened without a supernatural cause. That is all fine when you are trying to show that there could be a supernatural cause, but it is all based on an assumption.

You try to put forth that god is the simplest explanation, but it just can not be so because god itself is the most complicated, powerful thing beyond imagination, so the 'simplest explanation' is actually backed by the simply unexplainable. That isn't simple at all. The simplest explanation is that there is a natural explanation that is consistent with the natural laws of the universe.

Quote: Dalex64

The simplest explanation is that there is a natural explanation that is consistent with the natural laws of the universe.

And it's not hidden, it's not mysterious and
it's for sure not supernatural. That's what
science has slowly done over the centuries
is topple the old supernatural explanations
for everything and replace them with the
unexciting mundane truth.

Quote: Dalex64

If there was something before the current universe, that doesn't agree with the current interpretation of the story of genesis.

Remember that Genesis is about God creating everything out of nothing, it doesn't pretend to be a scientific textbook about how this happened.

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You are also continuing to assume that the universe is a contingent thing, and could not have happened without a supernatural cause. That is all fine when you are trying to show that there could be a supernatural cause, but it is all based on an assumption.

Nope, it is based on logic. It is not an assumption to say that a contingent thing needs a cause - that is a fact. Are you sure that you are not assuming an impossibility because you are trying to show that there could not be a supernatural cause?

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You try to put forth that god is the simplest explanation, but it just can not be so because god itself is the most complicated, powerful thing beyond imagination, so the 'simplest explanation' is actually backed by the simply unexplainable. That isn't simple at all. The simplest explanation is that there is a natural explanation that is consistent with the natural laws of the universe.

First of all I don't think I am trying to say that God is necessarily the simplest explanation just that it is the correct one. However, really the idea of God is not that complicated. It comes from what we know about the universe and what its cause must be. The attributes of God logically need to be all-powerful, spiritual, eternal, and non-contingent. What you say is the simplest explanation is imaginary. While I grant you that we can make up lots of simple explanations they need to be also true and possible.

I see that instead of answer me about where the
Church got it immense wealth from in the PM
I sent you, you chose instead to block me from
asking about it. That speaks volumes about what
your answer would be, doesn't it.

Has anybody here ever followed the money trail
on how the Church became the wealthiest
organization on the planet? It's not for the
timid. It turns out gods true Church is just as
greedy, just as underhanded, as any non religious
institution. Imagine that.