Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

But I have NEVER said just have blind faith and believe me.

You most certainly have, and more
than a few times. You never used
the word 'blind', but you have said
why can't I just take your testimony
that god is real and go from there.
It's been a major part of your argument
over the years, about why can't I
just take your anecdotal experiences
with god as the real thing.

Quote:

Your belief that there is no God is completely devoid of reason or evidence, you really need to remind yourself of that often.

Exactly. There is no reason or
evidence for a gods existence.
I've often asked you what's
the reason for believing in god
and never have an answer. I
can't see where pretending a
god exists would benefit me
at all. It would be like pretending
I have a bank account full of
money and telling everybody
about it. But it has no real value.

Quote:

often you just say something strange like: "because it is obvious"

It is obvious. Just like to you the
other 5000 gods are not real. To
me it's obvious yours isn't either.

Quote:

You shouldn't believe because of my story or anyone else's!

But that's all the religion has, stories.
The NT, written from stories
handed down for decades. Stories
from other believers, who feed off
the stories of other believers. You
can see it when you're in church.
They all believe because they're
surrounded by other believers.
It's powerful force, group think.
You can use to to sustain a religion
or whip a mob into a frenzy.

People are extremely susceptible
to suggestion, and that's all
Xtianity is. A continuous
sustainment of a storyline
bolstered and fed by others
in the group being fed by others
in the group. This is why so
many Churches frown on
hanging out with non Xtians.
A lot of peoples faith is hanging
by a thread and it doesn't take
much for them to fall away.

Quote: petroglyph

You have said that the proof you have is your belief. And also the further evidence you have is that other people believe.

I do not have proof. One of the most common mistakes people seem to make is confusing evidence and proof. Proof is found in mathematical equations and that is about it. In the real world we have evidence that leads to conclusions based on that evidence. We can arrive at beyond a reasonable doubt based on evidence. I have no reasonable doubt that God exists but I think you confuse things when you desire proof. The evidence of my experience, other's experiences, miracles, history, philosophy, theology, logic, the changing of lives for the better, charity, science, Scriptures, anthropology, etc., etc. all are pieces of evidence that make it clear that there is a God. Notice that it is not just one piece of evidence by itself but it is the preponderance of evidence taken together and where it points that lead to rational belief.

Now you will note there is absolutely nothing that Bob as an atheist can point to as evidence for his staunch blind faith that there is no possibility of a God. Now before you claim that you can't prove a negative you have to remember that claiming without a doubt that something does not exist is making a truth claim. An agnostic at least recognizes the limits of evidence and logic that simply cannot support any conclusion that there is no God. An agnostic might think God is unknowable but Evenbob goes much further without any reason but only because he says so or he wants it to be so. That is strange to say the least, illogical, and blind faith.

Quote: Evenbob

You most certainly have, and more
than a few times. You never used
the word 'blind',
but you have said
why can't I just take your testimony
that god is real and go from there.
It's been a major part of your argument
over the years, about why can't I
just take your anecdotal experiences
with god as the real thing.

Bob, really? You are really confused. Sure I've asked why you can't believe my testimony or the testimony of others, but I've never said this is the basis upon which you should base YOUR faith. Remember you have consistently rejected even the idea of any evidence at all for God. I have said over and over that my testimony and the testimony of other is evidence pointing to the existence of God. You say that is not true. Now all of the sudden you fly off the handle saying that all Christians have is testimony. This is news to me because you never before have acknowledged that testimony, mine or anyone's, was evidence at all.

Are you now saying that there is evidence for God and it is just the stories that I and billions of others have concerning God? If you are than I would say we are making progress.

Have you really thought all this time I was saying you should believe in God based solely on my testimony or the testimony of others? Is that what you have been thinking? I don't get it, how could you get so confused?

Quote: FrGamble

there is absolutely nothing that Bob as an atheist can point to as evidence for his staunch blind faith that there is no possibility of a God.

But I don't have to have evidence of
god not existing. Or Santa or
unicorns or Bigfoot. If they
exist they will present themselves.
Why should I spend one second
of my time chasing down fairy
tales. I have no dog in that race.
Why would I care what somebody
thinks of me being an atheist.

You on the other hand are out on
a limb. You have to constantly
substantiate your beliefs because
people you're in charge of depend
on them. Luckily you're surrounded
by people who believed the same
stories you did. Good thing for
you cause that's all you've got,
stories.

Quote: FrGamble

Sure I've asked why you can't believe my testimony or the testimony of others, but I've never said this is the basis upon which you should base YOUR faith.

Sure you did. You've said if nothing
else, take your word that your experiences
are true. Start there, you've said. You've
also said how can billions of believers
be wrong. Easily. Mob mentality is
proof of nothing.

Again, the point is all your religion
has is anecdotal evidence, the word
of others that it's true.

anecdotal evidence: noun evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them

If you start looking for evidence of
a god working in your life, you're
going to find it. Or so you think. We're
very good at creating alternate realities
for us to live in, mental institutions
are full of people like that. Start thinking
you see a god working in your life
and you'll have anecdotal stories to
share too, just like all Xtions.

You still haven't explained why a normal
well adjusted person needs a god in
their life. That's because the only explanation
you have is you need a god in order
to play the Parker Bros board game
'Christianity'. Rules of play under the lid.
Some of us don't want to play games,
life is too short.

Quote: FrGamble

I do not have proof. One of the most common mistakes people seem to make is confusing evidence and proof. Proof is found in mathematical equations and that is about it. In the real world we have evidence that leads to conclusions based on that evidence. We can arrive at beyond a reasonable doubt based on evidence. I have no reasonable doubt that God exists but I think you confuse things when you desire proof. The evidence of my experience, other's experiences, miracles, history, philosophy, theology, logic, the changing of lives for the better, charity, science, Scriptures, anthropology, etc., etc. all are pieces of evidence that make it clear that there is a God. Notice that it is not just one piece of evidence by itself but it is the preponderance of evidence taken together and where it points that lead to rational belief.

Maybe because the majority of your time is spent in the company of similar minded people, you have convinced yourself that these experiences are evidence. To a casual observer, it is similar to mariners telling tales of sea monsters.

The preponderance of evidence really is only in your head. Imagine what others not involved in religious orders see from outside, the damage done, the headlines?

Quote: petroglyph

Maybe because the majority of your time is spent in the company of similar minded people

Xtians first line of defense, FrG uses
it all the time, is, you just don't want
to believe. You've closed your mind
to believing,

It's not even that simple, I haven't
got that far that I've closed my mind
to believing. First and foremost
I don't see the point of believing
Xtianity. Or in god for that matter.

Are god believers better off than
non believers? Not that I can see.
Can I tell a believer by the car he
drives or house he lives in? In fact,
people waste a huge amount of
time on their religion. I don't care,
you have to waste your time on
something, even Mark Twain saw
that. He said religion gives people
something to fiddle with, takes
up their time.

I just see no point or reason for
it to take up my time. There are
far more enjoyable things to
waste time on.

Bob the reason why we need religion is found in the reason why you often talk about us all making our own reality. You make your own reality based on your self, your own desires, wants, and needs. This will never lead to happiness. It is like you are trying to fill your gas tank with vinegar and then wondering why the car won't run right. You search for meaning, love, acceptance, and purpose and the one you try to make for yourself always disappoints and leaves sadness, shame, and the feeling of being alone and without lasting and real hope. You and I were made for more. We are not the ones who determine reality. We did not create ourselves or the universe. It is beyond us as is truth. Christianity in particular teaches us that we are meant for relationship. A relationship with God and with others. Both of these relationships ask us to make a gift of ourselves to the other. This is where we find true happiness, freedom, love, acceptance, meaning, and eternal hope. Jesus Christ came for this reason to reveal the loving Father to us and to show us that we are beloved sons and daughters of God and brothers and sisters to one another.

Quote: FrGamble

You search for meaning, love, acceptance, and purpose and the one you try to make for yourself always disappoints and leaves sadness, shame, and the feeling of being alone and without lasting and real hope.

Good grief, I forgot it's Sunday, preachy
day. What a boatload of cow dung. Sorry,
but c'mon. Nobody is happy without
Jesus. In fact it's not possible. I show
you happy people in India who have
not a clue who Jesus is. Billions of
Buddhists and Hindi's, who think
they're happy but are really miserable
because they never heard of Jesus.

This is boilerplate Xtian propaganda.
They did it to the native Hawaiians,
among others. Took a completely
happy people, made them believe
they were really miserable, and
then spoon fed them the 'cure'.
The scary thing is, you believe your
own churches nonsensical dangerous
crap.