Science and God

Quote: FrGamble

I have never heard any atheist give a coherent much less a reasoned argument why they believe there is no God.

I have before. Maybe not directly, but for the open ear, the reason was there to be found. Forum's a lil' slow today, so I'll give it a shot directly.

Everyone is a skeptic, I think, though I do think some are born with or have obtained more than most. On the extremes you probably have the hard headed and the gullible, and I'd reckon I'd fall strictly into the hard headed category. Most of y'all have probably already deduced this yourself ;) I'm not sure why I'm like that; could be nature, could be nurture, prolly it's a little bit of both. But I'm not sure the "why" matters. Let's just accept that I'm stubborn as a mule and move on.

Now, that question - "why" - something about it speaks to me. I'm pretty sure my mission in life is to answer it, because it is rare indeed when I can pass it up. Why that bug is that color, why salt stings, why leaves fall, whatever it is, I gotta know. HAVE to. What, who, how, these all bore me. Why, now that gets my motor running.

As a why-a-holic, it doesn't take long to get to "why are we here". And it seems there is no end to the reasons that some have made up to answer this question. And just like every single other thing in the world, this question and its answers are examined by me using what intellect I have and the knowledge and information I've come across in my 30some years.

Simply put, the answers given don't work for me. There is a lot I don't know, and by "don't know", I mean I personally could not have figured it out. How do I know that water is made of two hydrogen and one oxygen? I haven't the means to come to that knowledge on my own. So that means I must take at their word men who have claimed to have figured it out. Of course, a man like me is gonna need proof. And lo! I find there are ways to prove it, or at least cast some faith into that nugget. One could zap water with electricity, separating the H and the O. You could then take these parts and use them in a way to prove what they are. Mix the H with some Cl, now I'm melting metal. Take the O and mix it with some Mg, now you can make a rocket. Whatever. Point is there are ways to know what you, previously, could not know. As such, I have faith aplenty when it comes to the science of chemistry, even though I on my own could not begin to come to such conclusions myself. I've done enough in it and with it to see that truth has been spoken.

With God, god, or gods, I see no such proof. I actually don't even like that I have used the phrase "such proof", because I have seen zero proof at all. The only information supplied as "proof" have been a series of books written a long, long, loooong time ago, books which... c'mon. It's Tolkein before there was Tolkein.

This book is supposed to be the be-all, end-all, and even before the age of reason I was already picking it apart. This was supposed to be the proof of God, infallible. But with my simple child's mind, already there were untruths. And we know the thing about liars, right? Liars tell the truth all the time. But with just one falsity, it calls into question all the rest. And question I did.

The more I looked, the more I saw a false. A man cannot rise from the dead. Mostly dead? Sure. Happens all the time. But not dead-dead. The world cannot be covered in water. Geology makes it IMPOSSIBLE. Bushes cannot talk, snakes cannot talk, there is no kingdom past the clouds, there is no edge to our Earth.

So right there, before I'd even sprouted my philosophical wings, you're already done. The claim of God is as big as a claim that we are actually made of these tiny bits so small not even a microscope can see them. And these bits, they're all the same. Just P, E, and N. And everything there ever was is made of them, they're just arranged differently. Put them this way and they're water. Move this over here, add a bunch of these, and we have iron. Take a bunch of that away, move these here, and we have carbon. Pretty soon we have 118 different "things" which themselves can be mixed and moved and rearranged to make every single thing there is. Paper and steel and rubber and glass and chocolate pudding and sulfuric acid and cotton and teflon. Everything out of just P, E, and N.

Tell me that and I'd tell you you're f#$%ing crazy. But then, there's these guys and this whole line of study called chemistry, and they went and proved it all. This hugely grandiose claim, and they have the nuts to back it up. Not parts of it, which even that would be amazing. But they have the whole GD shootin' match laid out for everyone. Anything you don't believe, they can back it up. I would've taken a hint or a probability, but no. Stone cold fact, right in your face.

Religion does none of that. Religion tosses s#$% at walls and what we have now is what stuck. And on that wall, which is the point of this whole post, I see nothing of value when it comes to truth. For sure there is value. The Golden Rule is not a scientific principle that can be manufactured in a lab, yet is of value nonetheless. Don't get me wrong when I say the things I say. But on God I don't just find it wanting, I find it empty.

All that is left is stories of what other people say. And since there is no truth they can submit, I must run it through my own processor. And my processor rejects the notion, violently.

We are all just parts. Three little ones. Arrange them just so and you have meat. But just because we're made of parts, and said parts can be arranged, does not mean you can turn lead into gold.

Quote:

But on God I don't just find it wanting, I find it empty.

It starts empty and ends empty. Because
it is empty. You may have convinced
yourself that god talks to you. There
are people who are convinced they're
Teddy Roosevelt. I don't see the difference,
you can talk yourself into anything.

Quote: FrGamble

Did I miss something?

I have never heard any atheist give a coherent much less a reasoned argument why they believe there is no God.

How do you make a coherent argument about
something that doesn't exist. Just say 'there is
no evidence that a god exists'. End of
argument. End of subject. Anything else you
say is superlative. Somebody else may think
they have evidence, think god talks to them
every day. How is that my problem. As long
as his claws have been pulled and he can
no longer kill me for not believing like him,
who cares what he believes.

Face, thanks as always for your excellent posts.

I wonder why in the case of water you trust in the experts that tell you it is H2O and then you go an test it. However, in the case of God you do not seem open to trusting in the experts and then go and test it? As sure as you can melt metal with H and Cl is as sure as you will find your life blessed in putting your faith in Christ and inviting Him to be your Lord and Savior. It is a guarantee that is just as sure as anything chemistry or science can predict.

Now the why this is so difficult and not easy to do is because it requires of us an investment of ourselves and a submitting to a higher power. You can't do this like an objective experiment all done safely behind glass and observed. I can tell you till I am blue in the face the truth about who Jesus Christ is and what He will do for you but it is the same as a scientist telling you water is made of H2O. It only is knowledge that you have an good and healthy insatiable desire to test and discover on your own. However, to discover the truth of God you have to put some skin in the game.

Here is an analogy. An astronomer may tell you that there is a planet X out there right behind Pluto. He can show it to you in a telescope but it remains a distant truth that you may believe, but you cannot test it personally, so unlike the make-up of water it remains an interesting fact but on the periphery of your life. However, if this scientist said, "here is a rocket ship that will take you there so you can experience it yourself." Then you have a choice to make. Does it really matter enough for you to get in and blast off changing your life giving up certain things that you would have to leave behind or are you content to just observe it from far and either take this guy's word for it or not?

I put some chopped onion in the microwave the other day, and there were sporadic arcs of light between pieces now and then.

We can infer that this miracle transubstantiated the onion into metal, thus producing the sparks, yet allowed it to be cooked. And when the power of Ra, microwaves being a form of light which exist in the Sun, was turned off, the onion was perfectly edible and well cooked.

This was obviously the work of Zeus himself, assisted by Ra.

Quote: FrGamble

Here is an analogy. An astronomer may tell you that there is a planet X out there right behind Pluto. He can show it to you in a telescope but it remains a distant truth that you may believe, but you cannot test it personally,

Of curse you can. you may lack the knowledge to do so, but you can easily see the knowledge, and the means for acquiring it, are readily available through many different means. If you cared enough, you could test it.

Failing this, the astronomer's work will be reviewed by many of her peers. And afterwards there will be plenty of observations made which further confirm this claim. Not only that, but the initial knowledge of the new planet will keep on being expanded and extended by other scientists.

Where your analogy fails is there is objective, tangible, falsifiable, testable proof for scientific claims, whereas there's nothing more than argument, logic-chopping and subjective feelings for religious claims.

Quote: Nareed

Of curse you can. you may lack the knowledge to do so, but you can easily see the knowledge, and the means for acquiring it, are readily available through many different means. If you cared enough, you could test it.

The exact same with the Christian faith.

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Failing this, the astronomer's work will be reviewed by many of her peers. And afterwards there will be plenty of observations made which further confirm this claim. Not only that, but the initial knowledge of the new planet will keep on being expanded and extended by other scientists.

Again this is true of Christianity. It has been reviewed and confirmed to be a blessing by more people than any scientific claim has ever been tested.

Quote: FrGamble

The exact same with the Christian faith.

And other fairy tales. Nicer ones, too.

Quote:

Again this is true of Christianity.

I was taught it's really not polite to laugh in someone's face.

Quote: FrGamble

Again this is true of Christianity. It has been reviewed and confirmed to be a blessing by more people than any scientific claim has ever been tested.

'To be a blessing', not proven true. It's
never been proven Jesus rose from the
dead, only that people who have been
tricked into believing it feel 'blessed'

This is not the scientific method in action,
it's *subjective nonsense on parade.

*subjective; existing in the mind and not in reality

Bob this is your subjective (and incorrect) opinion.