Science and God

Quote: Evenbob

So you have no examples, then. You
have said it a hundred times, how
we constantly know to do the right
thing, and do the wrong thing instead.
Yet you can't name a single example?

What?

Still no examples? You say this so often
that surely you must something in mind
that would explain what you mean.

Quote: Nareed

I'm not well versed in philosophy. However, Ayn Rand wrote extensively about the role of volition in human actions and the hierarchies of values involved in ethics. This is as good an explanation as any other.

Emphasizing the role of the human will doesn't explain at all why we don't always follow our hierarchy of ethics. In fact such an idea puts the problem in stark contrast. Why is our will wounded so that what we want to do and what is right to do is often difficult or not done at all.

Quote: FrGamble

Emphasizing the role of the human will doesn't explain at all why we don't always follow our hierarchy of ethics.

You're missing the role of values. Values are paramount.

To begin with, do you find value in yourself or seek it in others? I brought up the mafia for this point. Often a powerful Don will brag about how many people shiver at the mere sight of him, and the "good" consequences of this. What consequences? Having people hold doors open for him, having people ready and eager to please him even in small matters, how they show him respect, things like that. This kind of person derives his self-worth from how other people think of him and how they treat him.

This is true also of many celebrities, albeit in a much more benign form. Not all of them, perhaps not even most of then, but the stories about prima-donnish celebrities are a dime a dozen. I say this is more benign, because most of these people, especially actors and musicians, contribute huge values to the general public at large.

This is just a beginning. One also needs to see at what people value and why, not just the source, but it's a start.

Fine, it's the mystery of how people often go against even their values. Even if you find your value in yourself you still seek it at times through others or vice-versa.

Quote: FrGamble

Why is our will wounded so that what we want to do and what is right to do is often difficult or not done at all.

Here we go again! What does this even mean?
You keep making these cryptic comments and
you never give any examples. My will isn't
'wounded', why is yours. What are you doing that
that's not right at all.

Quote: FrGamble

Fine, it's the mystery of how people often go against even their values.

This does happen. But people like mobsters don't go against their values. if they did, they would be rather decent people.

Quote:

Even if you find your value in yourself you still seek it at times through others or vice-versa.

Not through others. IN others.

Sometimes I cook some very complicated, long, hard, laborious recipes. When I'm done, I feel a sense of pride and accomplishment which makes me very happy. the afterglow of this can last for days, and gets rekindled when I eat what I cooked. Sometimes other people partake of this, most often they don't. Sometimes they like it, sometimes they don't. This doesn't affect my earlier feeling. That's an instance of finding value in one's self.

Now suppose all those long, arduous hours of cooking left me feeling anxious, and wondering "Will people think I'm a great cook?" Some time later, either one or more people eat my dish and pronounce it excellent. Then if I were to feel good about it, I wouldn't be finding value in myself, but in what other people think of me. That's finding value only IN others.

the example is rather benign to other people (but not to my alternate self; imagine how wretched she must be!) But change it to seeking value in obedience, in people groveling before you, in controlling others, in simply exercising power over people, etc. and you can see all sorts of negative consequences for the world at large.

Quote: Nareed

This does happen. But people like mobsters don't go against their values.

People go against even their good and noble values often. Let's say you value speaking the truth and uplifting others by your conversation yet once the gossip begins we tend to get sucked in. People value patience and kindness and yet on the road they fly into a rage.

Quote: FrGamble

Let's say you value speaking the truth and uplifting others by your conversation yet once the gossip begins we tend to get sucked in.

Who does that, 'uplifting others, with your
conversation. Try it, you'll come across as
a pompous ass. Always giving advice and
telling wise stories nobody wants or needs
to hear. Gossip, on the other hand, can be
loads of fun. It's how we find out what's
going on and keeps us in touch with our
little world of neighbors and friends.

Quote: FrGamble

People go against even their good and noble values often.

Not all values are created equal.

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Let's say you value speaking the truth and uplifting others by your conversation

I do. You're one of my biggest failures in this regard :)

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..yet once the gossip begins we tend to get sucked in.

There's gossip and there's rumor-mongering, more or less. I haven't give the matter that much thought. But let's say that catching up on what one's circle of friends and family are up to, is rather different than revealing things told in confidence, or making up lies about others.

Quote: Nareed

Not all values are created equal.

Very true.

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I do. You're one of my biggest failures in this regard :)

I think you do great, but maybe that is because I'm comparing you to Evenbob. It also takes two to tango; sometimes I'm not very nice to you or others, sorry about that.

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There's gossip and there's rumor-mongering, more or less. I haven't give the matter that much thought. But let's say that catching up on what one's circle of friends and family are up to, is rather different than revealing things told in confidence, or making up lies about others.

I think we all know in our conscience when the line is crossed from keeping up on what family and friends are doing to mean and destructive gossip. My point is not where that line is but rather that we cross it even when we don't want to.