Science and God

Let's not derail this thread, but you do know she herself would literally go out and bring in the poorest of the poor who were literally dying in the gutters. She and her sisters would bathe, feed, and love on these people till their dying day. She attempted to relieve their suffering and surround them with love - if that is not caring for the dying like they deserve, I don't know what is.

What you are confusing is her mentality that to be like Christ one must be willing to suffer for others. It has nothing to do with making others suffer, but everything to do with allowing yourself to suffer so as to alleviate the suffering of others. It wasn't fun or easy to go into the streets and carry the poorest of the poor into her house and care for them, but in her eyes and mine (and I think God's) it was beautiful what she was doing. I could link to a thousand articles on this but you couldn't read them all so what's the point.

Quote: FrGamble

I think this is what Christianity does.

And I disagree.

Do we end it here, or do we go fifteen rounds? I'll leave the choice up to you.

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It understands something about the human person and can therefore using this knowledge predicts our behavior and cultural successes and failures.

Round 1

If we drift into this territory, I'm going to ask to see charts, graphs, and diamond-hard numbers.

Many modern religions, and Christianity in particular, either are or contain a philosophical system. No philosophy would last this long if it did not provide some practical, every day value (not values, but value, if you see the distinction). That's why fanatical cults often end so tragically, IMO. But there are many philosophical systems, from even before there were formal philosophers and to the present day (non-systematic philosophy in ancient cultures is a fascinating and frustrating subject).

The point is many of these systems have made observations and provided value, and many are still around. There's nothing special about Christianity in this regard, or about Islam for that matter.

Well, I guess I didn't leave the choice up to you. My apologies.

Quote: FrGamble

What you are confusing .

I'm not confusing anything. What you're
confusing is the woman who originally
started it all and what she became
later. Make no mistake, she had a sick
attitude towards the dying. Some
reported that she ran 'a cult of death
and suffering' comparable to a Nazi
concentration camp. The more suffering
the better, apparently.

Quote: Nareed

The point is many of these systems have made observations and provided value, and many are still around. There's nothing special about Christianity in this regard, or about Islam for that matter.

I agree, of course, that many of these religious ideas do provide value to our lives and have contributed to their longevity and ours as the human race. However I do think Christianity's unique take on the human person is indeed special. No other religion or philosophy, besides perhaps Judaism, has a coherent explanation for the fact that we are so good and yet can be so evil. Why we find it difficult to do what we know is right and why we so often do what we know is wrong is unanswerable without the notion of Original Sin.

Also the solution to this problem involving the true, complete, and permanent Incarnation of God as a human being is unique in all of philosophy and religion. There are imitations or preludes as you have pointed out in the Egyptian pantheon, but nothing at the level of the Incarnation. Certainly it is unique and special to believe that God Himself would lay down His life for us in order to set us free from sin and eternal death. As I mentioned once before, just about any story or book we enjoy has some variation on this theme.

Quote: FrGamble

Why we find it difficult to do what we know is right and why we so often do what we know is wrong .

You constantly say this, yet never give any
examples. I have no trouble doing what's
right, and I suspect most people don't.

We might slip up sometimes, so what.
It's called being human. You act like people
are constantly, all day long, doing what
they know is wrong on purpose.

The fact that you call slipping up, "being Human" should be a good enough example.

Quote: FrGamble

The fact that you call slipping up, "being Human" should be a good enough example.

So you have no examples, then. You
have said it a hundred times, how
we constantly know to do the right
thing, and do the wrong thing instead.
Yet you can't name a single example?

What?

Quote: FrGamble

Science is the sure foundation or the launching pad from which reason can blast off into the unknown. If your philosophy or religion is not supported by science (I'm looking at you Mormons) then you're foundation is off kilter and you might blast off in the wrong direction.

I hate to thumbtack but I'm still waiting to hear how the Mormon faith is any less scientific than the Catholic one.

Quote: FrGamble

However I do think Christianity's unique take on the human person is indeed special.

It's certainly unique, as are all the others each in their own way. You need more than that before I can call it "special"

Quote:

No other religion or philosophy, besides perhaps Judaism, has a coherent explanation for the fact that we are so good and yet can be so evil.

I'm not well versed in philosophy. However, Ayn Rand wrote extensively about the role of volition in human actions and the hierarchies of values involved in ethics. This is as good an explanation as any other. I wont' drag up the typical examples (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and other human-shaped heaps of worthless, noxious slime), but simply refer you to read about the Mafia and other groups of organized crime.

Judaism doesn't delve into this matter all that much, as far as I know.

Quote:

Why we find it difficult to do what we know is right and why we so often do what we know is wrong is unanswerable without the notion of Original Sin.

And I disagree.

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Also the solution to this problem involving the true, complete, and permanent Incarnation of God as a human being is unique in all of philosophy and religion.

Again, they're all unique in some way.

I'll have to borrow Rick Harrison's stock phrase "rare doesn't mean valuable," and turn it to "Unique doesn't mean special."

Quote: FrGamble

There is no evidence that Jesus ever made it to America and no record of the albino tribe of Native Americans that He preached to who were then all killed. The Joseph Smith story is full of problems in regards to the finding of the golden tablets, the method of translation, the ability to duplicate the translation, the disappearance of the tablets, etc. This is just trying to strictly answer you question concerning what is fundamental to their beliefs that is not supported by science. I am not going into the problems one might have with their theology.

This was my response to the Wizard's question concerning the scientific failings of Mormonism, I think he may have missed it as he was climbing Everest or something.