Science and God

Quote: Nareed

Your insistence that the fact the universe came into being requires a creator, is more a personal opinion than a reasoned argument. And ti will continue to be so until we find, if we can, what existed before the universe, or whether anything did. .

Nareed, Christians are trying to prove a
negative, and so they will never be
proven wrong. No matter what science
finds, they will claim god was the cause
of it. Just like you can't prove unicorns
once existed, because they never did.
And because they never did, the unicorn
believers can never be denied, you can't
prove a negative.

I'll say it again and again, certain people need
to believe in god, and they can't tolerate that
he might not exist. It's a mild form of mental
illness, all you have to do is be involved with
them on a day to day basis to see it. They live
in the realm of fantasy and whimsy, and it's
real because they've convinced others of it
and that just reinforces the fantasy.

Really, you can't prove a negative? Prove it.

Quote: FrGamble

Really, you can't prove a negative? Prove it.

That's why there's faith, that's why god
rewards his followers. If god was proven
real, and everyone was convinced, faith
would not be needed. No reward for
believers then..

Quote: FrGamble

I do hope you will turn that mirror on yourself as well and recognize that your insistence that there is no God is more a personal opinion than a reasoned argument, at least when it comes to using science.

You should hope for something easier, like a perpetual motion machine. All that would stand in your way then would be the laws of physics, and according to you, perhaps, the will of God.

That's small potatoes compared to what you're asking ;)

Quote:

To make reasoned arguments about God, which science cannot speak on, we must talk of philosophy and the arts.

Why the arts? Esthetics is a branch of philosophy. While some arts can be used to teach or learn, art itself has no intrinsic cognitive value.

Quote: Evenbob

That's why there's faith,

So you have faith that you can't prove a negative?

Quote: FrGamble

So you have faith that you can't prove a negative?

I have faith you can't prove god exists, because
he doesn't, and that means you have to prove
a negative, which you can't.

Quote: FrGamble

I am not trying to use science to do something it cannot do - such as prove God exists, or disprove Him for that matter.

I wonder if science can't disprove God, at least your Judeo-Christian God.

Hasn't science disproved many (most) gods before Him? The Creator was a good story, but of course we now know what stuff makes up living beings, none of which are clay. Ra was a good placeholder before we knew why the sun "went round and round the Earth". But that pesky science again.

I don't think science can prove or disprove a generic god, at least not in my time. I don't expect to know what was here before here was here. But there seems to be enough stuff that has been attributed to your specific god that leaves Him vulnerable to science. Some things already sort of have been, but your denom seems to have distanced itself and now refer to it as "those crazy fundamental/creationist beliefs". Stuff like 2 of every animal, Noah's flood, him living several hundred years, the Earth being 6,000yrs old, etc.

But isn't there still stuff that could blow yours apart? What if someone picks up where Miller-Urey left off and proves abiogenesis as truth? What if extra terrestrial life is discovered? What if they sort that whole dark matter thing and can show that something can come from nothing, and often does?

Of course, all of that could still be written off as "God's plan". But your God? I wonder...

Quote: Face

Of course, all of that could still be written off as "God's plan". But your God? I wonder...

Because god doesn't exist, he's an evolving
concept. The idea of god will always survive
anything thrown at him. Why? Because it's
a big business, that's the only reason he
'exists'. God is all about growing religion,
building churches and temples, and enriching
those in charge. The Catholics and the Mormons
are worth billions. That's always been the
point of it. It's a business masquerading as
a religion. If FrG ever sat down and thought
about it, he would see it clear as day. But
he never will, because he's a willing part of
it. The business of religion will always be
with us, it's way too profitable to ever go
away.

Quote: FrGamble

Science has done its job by pointing out that the universe has a beginning. Now it is up to theologians, philosophers, and ourselves to determine who or what the creator of all things is.

No. Theologians merely want to usurp this as their sole expertise, but it might make more sense to list the various "science explanations" for the "miracles" of the Bible. We will then watch with great humor as the ducks start falling and the theologians cling desperately to the final duck.

So, parting of the Red Sea, Lot's Wife becoming a pillar of salt, etc. etc. as a scientific explanation is provided... the duck falls and the theologian is no longer permitted to scream about damnation and sulphur. Creation and Creator are not the same. As religion loses its secular stranglehold on thought we will confront a public unsupressed by the ignorance of the masses.

Quote: Face

I wonder if science can't disprove God, at least your Judeo-Christian God.

Science and religion have no beef with each other. They both search for truth and if God created the universe, which He did, than any and all truths we discover about the natural world and the observable universe cannot is some way contradict faith. The two pursuits play on different fields anyway. Religion gets in trouble when it tries to play on science's turf and science is helpless when it attempts to compete with religion and faith on its home field. So you'll excuse me if I am not worried about science discovering something that could blow apart my faith, the Globetrotters don't lose to the Generals. I am more worried about Christians attempting to challenge science and being made to look like fools.

As far as disproving the Judeo-Christian God, hasn't the science of history already proven that Jesus of Nazareth lived and taught some 2,000 years ago and that He was crucified by the Romans. Three days later His disciples and followers were so inspired by what they called a Resurrection event that they went out in the midst of persecution and were fearless in proclaiming Jesus Christ had risen from the dead. This small group of people beginning from an upper room in Jerusalem transformed the world in a way that defies explanation to this very day. These are just established facts.