Icons, what gives?

Quote: FrGamble

I also think your non-supported stat that you like to bring out without any source is really not that impressive.

Hold on there. You said the same thing
months ago, and when I produced the
sources, you said zip. You said nothing.
So don't even try and lay that crap on
me again. Do some work yourself for
a change, look it up.

Quote:

Whether you believe in God or not is not as strong a predictor of if you will find yourself in prison.

Then what's the fricking POINT? If
god can't teach you the proper morals
to keep you out of prison, but atheists
can, what is the POINT of believing in
god. You constantly talk in circles, in
clever ways that you think are oh so
clever. But I know you far better than
you think I do. You are more interested
in my side of the fence than I'm interested
in yours. Ask yourself why that is..

Quote: FrGamble

However, I do think to even give meaning to the adjective "good" we need God or else we are stuck with 'good guy' or 'good morals' being different for every person based on what they think, feel, or how they were brought up.

1st off, I am not anti jewish faith.
Anyway was watching a documentary on Jerusalem
A rabbi makes his daily trip to the Western Wall to pray.
When he leaves his house, he makes sure to pack a loaded gun before his daily trip.
This is a deeply religious man. A man willing to risk his life and maybe kill another human being simply to travel to a site to pray to God.

I am atheist that does not own a gun because I dont want to take a life. Life to me is precious.
I have a good moral compass. I question the moral compass of this deeply religious rabbi that packs a loaded gun.

Quote: Evenbob

It's all about
control, the fantasy of original sin
has less than nothing to with it.

A desire for control is what original sin is all about. A desire to be God specifically.

Quote: FrGamble

I have never seen a little child beat on a kid who is crying.

I was the little kid crying while two others beat up on her.

Quote: Nareed

I was the little kid crying while two others beat up on her.

In a country that is 83% Catholic?

Quote: Dalex64

In a country that is 83% Catholic?

If it helps any, the two kids were Jewish. The teacher watching and telling me to stop faking it was Catholic.

Quote: terapined

I question the moral compass of this deeply religious rabbi that packs a loaded gun.

You needn't. Most religions teach non-resistance, one of the most common being Matthew 5:38. But nearly every thinker and scholar realizes this pertains to less than lethal instances. Even those in the East teach the same standard escalation of force that LEO's do here, from mental (stay out of trouble) to verbal (diffuse trouble) to physical (stop trouble). Any death that results is the fault of the attacker, not of the defender, provided the defender has exhausted all less than lethal options first.

That's not to say the defender will not suffer pain. I was recently right on the cusp of a justified use of force incident, and despite that I chose not to use force, even that has caused me pain. Had I used force, that pain would've went off the charts. I would have suffered, sure. But rather I be here to suffer that pain and suffer it myself, than have my parents suffer it as they bury their child, and have my kid suffer it as he loses his father.

The choice to not use force does not mitigate pain. It only puts it on those who least deserve it. I understand the desire to do no harm. I question why you think your life is worth less than some s$%^head scumbag who would take it.

Quote: FrGamble

pre-God FrG was a really decent dude with good morals and it was because of my parents doing an excellent job brining me up that way.

You really can stop right there. That's it. That's everything.

Man has figured out that cooperation, being "good", is beneficial. The thing is, it's not man specific. All higher functioning animals have found the same thing. Bison roam in herds because there's strength in numbers. Penguins roam in great flocks because the heat of many outweighs the heat of one. Members of the porpoise family hunt together, fight together, because there is strength in numbers. There is strength in cooperation.

They act "badly" rarely. They do so pretty much for one reason - resources. Maybe it's territory to live, maybe it's over the hunt or a kill, maybe it's over a mate. But even for these, a majority of the conflicts are in posture and stance only, because actual fighting, actual "bad", is not beneficial to them.

Man is no different. We are exactly the same. We just assign odd characteristics to it, because we have the intelligence to become artsy and poetic. We call it karma, the Golden Rule, we come up with sayings like "birds of a feather" and "you are what you repeatedly do".

By being "good", I create a reputation for myself. If I borrow a fiver and say I'm gonna pay you back Monday, I'll be there Monday with a fiver, if not a tenner. Not because there's some supernatural thread woven into me, but because I've been taught by lesson and by example that doing so is beneficial to me. Somewhere down the road, I may need another fiver, and doing this good of keeping my word ensures me that the next time I ask, I will receive the same benefit. I know that if I'm "bad" and don't repay, I lose that resource. If I just kick your ass and take it, chances are I'll have an ass kicking waiting for me down the road. It's not beneficial, we've figured this out just like every other higher functioning animal has hundreds of thousands of years ago.

So we pass it on through lesson and through example. In your case, like mine, it was done through parents. And godless Face and godless FrG the Younger still wound up with the same set of decent morals. Interesting thing, innit?

You may fear some rise of differently aligned morals, and that surely does already happen. I've seen evidence, I've talked to those people. There was a kid I was friends with in HS, who every now and again would for some reason bully me. We'd be laughing and having fun and borrowing each other's Sega games on Tuesday, and we'd be getting kicked out of school for fighting on Thursday. I never understood it. Some ten years later we were getting high together at the crick and he brought it up. He actually apologized for it. He explained that his home life was a wreck, his dad was a mean drunk, and when he got beat at home, he'd come to school and do the same thing. You see, he was taught that fighting was right. Taught from his parents. He wasn't evil, he was just taught that different set of morals you worry about. But you see, him and all the others I brawled with who got taught these skewed morals, they didn't change morality. They can't. They are a minority, and will remain so until huge swings in humanity take place. So every time one of these outliers pop up, they will be punished by society - loss of privilege, fines, loss of freedom - until they choose to conform with what society deems as moral.

The church, sure, it has a part to play in this. But it is not the arbiter of it all, nor is it the source. It is just one of a million pieces that make morality what it is. I had no church, absolutely zero. But I had parents, and friend's parents, and aunts and uncles, and grandparents (especially grandparents), and coaches, and mentors, and teachers, and older friends, all of whom formed a path that made it hard for me to stray. Anytime I did, I'd get bumped back to true. The church does this, too. But it's not special in this regard, nor is it the source of it all.

Quote: Face

. I understand the desire to do no harm. I question why you think your life is worth less than some s$%^head scumbag who would take it.

I dont think my life is less worth then some s$%^head scumbag.
Does this have to do with me not being a gun owner?
I am 56 years old. All those years, I have never been in a position where a gun would help me.
I am not a hermit, as a deadhead, probabbly visted every major city downtown in the country.
Will be spending my JUl 4 weekend in downtown Chicago seeing my boys play soldier field.
Will be totally unarmed, not even a knife.
Got great seats. Thank you Grateful Dead Ticket Sales TOO

Quote: FrGamble

A desire for control is what original sin is all about. A desire to be God specifically.

There is no god, how can we desire
to be something we don't believe in.
Besides which, we have no god like
abilities. We hunt, we eat, we crap,
just like animals do. Eventually we
learned to build things, but that's
hardly a godlike ability. A god can do
anything. By comparison, we can do
almost nothing. So saying we want to
be god is a little far fetched, at best.