Icons, what gives?

Quote: Nareed

Does it mean "sack their cities, kill them all, rape the women and smash their children against their walls"?

Where is Dalex when you need him? A lot of what you bring up is straw man questions, non sequiturs and interesting speculation. I think you know very well the answer to this last ridiculous question.

Quote: FrGamble

Another difference is that an atheist's values are theirs and theirs alone. Without anything more universal than what they learned from friends, family, and society grounding their values they could be very different depending on the person and their experiences. It would seem that another atheist's view of what is good and bad would be just as valid since there is no moral system based on something greater than themselves.

FrGamble, I believe you are a good man. I also believe you have a good moral compass.
I also believe that if religion was not a part of your life, you would still have the same good moral compass because you are a good man.

I believe I have a good moral compass being an atheist.
I also believe that if I did become religious, my moral compass would not change.

Quote: FrGamble

I think you know very well the answer to this last ridiculous question.

I've heard Christians very seriously claim non-Christians should not have the same rights, if they are to be afforded any rights at all, because only Christians follow the "One True Faith." Give this mindset to someone in the Middle Ages, and rape, plunder, killing children and worse easily follow.

When the church held temporal power in Europe and elsewhere, discrimination and persecution in the basis of religion became prevalent in Christian lands. Look up the history of Europe's Jews. This sort of thing finally died out with the Enlightenment, but not without a great cost and much fighting. As late as the second half of the XIX Century, divine-right monarchy existed in Austria, Prussia (and later Germany), Russia and elsewhere.

That's why I don't think my question was ridiculous at all.

Quote: FrGamble

Another difference is that an atheist's values are theirs and theirs alone. Without anything more universal than what they learned from friends, family, and society grounding their values they could be very different depending on the person and their experiences. It would seem that another atheist's view of what is good and bad would be just as valid since there is no moral system based on something greater than themselves.

You often base your arguments from the existence of God being a fact.

Let me give you an argument using the non-existence of God as a fact.

All of the people who get their moral guidance from the church are in fact getting it from their friends, family, and society. Since there is no God, I can demonstrate that this is true. Since there is no god, people who are getting their morals are in fact getting them from eachother (society) and that is what grounds them.

People who have different religions get their morals from their own society. Since they aren't worshiping god right (after all yours is the one true religion) then their moral compass must come from their society, not god.

And finally, whether or not you believe in god has nothing to do with the orientation of your moral compass. I don't know if it is true, but I'll repeat Bob's assertion that as a percentage there are more people who believe in god in jail than there are athiests.

By the way, all of those arguments stink. For you, a belief in god is enough to make you believe that is where your moral compass comes from.
That belief does not depend on the fact of gods existence or not. If you are right, perhaps they do. But if I am right, it comes from society and it doesn't matter if you are an atheist or if you believe in god.

I'm saying the same thing several different ways, so pick your favorite

Quote: FrGamble

Where is Dalex when you need him? A lot of what you bring up is straw man questions, non sequiturs and interesting speculation. I think you know very well the answer to this last ridiculous question.

I don't always see them. If I jumped on every one I saw, I would get very tired, and people would very quickly get tired of me.

It is a matter of chosing your battles, what kind of mood I'm in, which has a lot to do with how talkative I am or how intelligent I feel (hopefully I sound as intelligent as I feel), and whether or not I'm interested in engaging that particular person at that particular time.

So the short version is: only when I feel like it. I'm not consistant.

Quote: Dalex64

I don't know if it is true, but I'll repeat Bob's assertion that as a percentage there are more people who believe in god in jail than there are athiests.

It's absolutely true. Less than 1/10 of 1%
are atheists, and over 80% are Christians.
If what they say about atheists was true,
that we have no moral compass, those
figures should be reversed. In fact, FrG
did say that all the time about atheists,
until the prison discussion came up.
There's a lot of things he said months
ago that he never mentions anymore.

My theory is atheists have true moral
values, and Christians have faux ones.
Their values were forced on them with
threats and coercion. 'You better act
this way or your going to hell in a hand
basket and Jesus won't like you anymore."
So they get rebellious, they get greedy,
they commit crimes and do violence.

Atheists are taught values by people who
practice them, no threats, no coercion. Do
the right thing and you'll feel good about
yourself. There's nothing to rebel against.

Quote: Dalex64

By the way, all of those arguments stink. For you, a belief in god is enough to make you believe that is where your moral compass comes from.
That belief does not depend on the fact of gods existence or not. If you are right, perhaps they do. But if I am right, it comes from society and it doesn't matter if you are an atheist or if you believe in god.

Stink so bad. I've been wanting to pop in, but I haven't been able to put it in words that don't sound so bad. I suppose I still haven't.

It's just painfully obvious. Morals are learned, they are not ingrained. Children are the most selfish, self centered beings on the planet. Not pulling hair, sharing toys, not kicking the dog, not throwing food, not spitting at people, not biting, none of these things are in their heads from the jump. Every bit of "being nice" is taught. It's plain as day. And when you so happen to find one that's just not nice, a bully, a fighter, an abuser, guarantee you peek into his home and find more of the same. It's not good and evil, it's all in the raising.

FrG has God. We do not. Yet we all have morality. How can it get any more obvious?

The conclusion to this is worst of all, and this is where I'm struggling with wording. Because, FrG, you stated you didn't find God until your 20's. That only leaves a few conclusions, and none of them are nice. One is that pre-God FrG was a jerk, and it wasn't until you found God that you found morality, so you project that same inability of self control onto others. Another is that pre-God FrG was a decent dude and had good morals, but you purposely omit that fact in an effort to promulgate your belief. The only other one I can figure is that pre-God FrG was a decent dude and had good morals, but for some reason has blocked that fact out from your own self. They all suck and don't really make sense, but I am unable to draw any other conclusion. I just don't get it.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be offensive, and I realize I was anyways, but it's not my intention to label you in that way. I just can't figure any other options, so I'm showing you what I "hear" when you say the things you say.

pre-God FrG was a really decent dude with good morals and it was because of my parents doing an excellent job brining me up that way. I personally know that you can be a great guy without having God as part of your life. I am sorry I am not making myself clear on this point.

However, I do think to even give meaning to the adjective "good" we need God or else we are stuck with 'good guy' or 'good morals' being different for every person based on what they think, feel, or how they were brought up.

I also think that morality is more ingrained than you think. It has to do with what someone brought up a while ago, empathy. Yes, children are not good at controlling their emotions when they are angry they pull hair, punch, and kick. They are selfish, remember original sin. However, I have noticed that what stops it every time is either a parent or in their absence - tears. I have never seen a little child beat on a kid who is crying. The hair is pulled and maybe pulled again, but once that kid shows visibly how it is hurting them the offender backs off. There is rebellion in our blood, it is original sin after all, but compassion usually wins out does it not? To be nice is taught and it needs to be, but it is supported and accepted by our inner software because of strong built in empathy and compassion.

You know Bob I think anything taught based on fear is destined to be short lived.

I also think your non-supported stat that you like to bring out without any source is really not that impressive. Whether you believe in God or not is not as strong a predictor of if you will find yourself in prison than a myriad of other stats such as family background, where you live, economic situation, education, etc. What I would be interested in is how a belief in God helps those in situations that statistically point to prison time to avoid ever being incarcerated.

Quote: FrGamble

but once that kid shows visibly how it is hurting them the offender backs off. There is rebellion in our blood, it is original sin after all, but compassion usually wins out does it not?
.

That's not 'original sin' kicking in, it's
not even compassion. The kid has
won, he got what he wanted, why
continue. You apparently have not
spent a lot of time around little kids
on a week to week basis. It's all about
control, the fantasy of original sin
has less than nothing to with it.

It's your will against the kids will,
and you have to prevail or the kid
will walk all over you forever. How
you got 'original sin' out of this
is amazing, talk about a stretch.