Icons, what gives?

Quote: FrGamble

Do you really think God would want that?

Of course, they had the Holy Spirit directing
the Churches minions to do exactly that.
Do you know nothing of Church history
other than what they have spoon fed you?

Quote: Evenbob

Of course, they had the Holy Spirit directing
the Churches minions to do exactly that.
?

I have to somewhat agree.

Every difficult decision is reached "after much prayer" which they have asked for and received divine guidance.

So, that is what they believe that God wants.

If they are wrong about what God wants, it implies that prayer and divine guidance doesn't work.

Quote: Evenbob

Do you know nothing of Church history
other than what they have spoon fed you?

Your problem is that it is you who is drinking the Kool-Aid in regards to the Church's teaching. It is kind of like your atheists in prison stat. You seem to take whatever anyone who is against the Church gives you as the Gospel truth. Can you point to any Church teaching in the catechism or any Pope who encouraged things like forcing people to convert or killing them? I'll tell you now the answer is no. The Holy Spirit can guide us all but we have to cooperate, again we are going back to your favorite topic of sin. People who want to be violent and have prejudice in their veins will find ways to manipulate and personally interpret everything from the Scriptures, to the Church's teaching, to its history in order to justify what they want to do but it does not mean such actions were the fruit of "prayer and divine guidance".

The problem in discussing morality with a theist, is they can only conceive of one type of morality: religious altruism.

Above all else, one must render unto Jehovah, Jesus, Allah or whatever the deity's nom du jour happens to be. Therefore being nice to people is not in and of itself good, but it's good only because it's pleasing to the deity (or because the deity commands it, which is the same thing). If the Israelites had been a force to be reckoned with in ancient times, there would be commandments to kill when necessary to suppress rebellion, conquer territory, etc. And we'd have rabbis, friars, and priests of all stripes explaining why it is good to kill a slave, a rebel or a drug dealer.

Hey, with a commandment not to kill in place, you still get plenty of holy men of all the "monotheistic" faiths argue now and then for killing large groups of people who've never hurt anyone, because that would either 1) be pleasing to the god or 2) help us avoid the god's wrath. I should add the present company is excluded.

Quote: Nareed

Therefore being nice to people is not in and of itself good, but it's good only because it's pleasing to the deity (or because the deity commands it, which is the same thing).

These things are not mutually exclusive. You are thinking either/or and I am thinking both/and.

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If the Israelites had been a force to be reckoned with in ancient times, there would be commandments to kill when necessary to suppress rebellion, conquer territory, etc. And we'd have rabbis, friars, and priests of all stripes explaining why it is good to kill a slave, a rebel or a drug dealer.

I don't think so, if something is good it is good and if something is bad it is bad and circumstances cannot change that. Even God can't change that (because of course He set it up that way).

Quote: FrGamble

These things are not mutually exclusive.

Some aren't. some definitely are:

what is the good in persecuting people of other faiths? what is the good in mutilating a child's genitals? what is the good in self-flagellation? what is the good in pretending to eat human flesh, or worse actually believing you're consuming real human flesh?

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I don't think so, if something is good it is good and if something is bad it is bad and circumstances cannot change that. Even God can't change that (because of course He set it up that way).

Ha!

Do you want to bet the atrocities perpetrated in the Crusades, the Inquisition, the religious wars and the various expulsions of Jews, Muslims, and others, were not defended at the time by theologians and church officials in terms of Christian morality?

The Old testament contains a commandment not to kill, but also prescriptions on when and even how people should be executed. Fortunately for us, both Judaism and Christianity have, largely, evolved to the point such things are not done any more. That's why changes in social attitudes are so important.

Quote: Nareed

what is the good in persecuting people of other faiths?

There is none, religious freedom is a fundamental human right. This of course doesn't mean you shouldn't try to evangelize or convince atheists they are crazy.

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what is the good in mutilating a child's genitals?

I can guess you may be talking about circumcision. I've wondered why that was so important to the Jews. I wonder if like eating Kosher it protected them from a lot of the health problems of the day. Even today there are studies showing that circumcision helps fight against infection.

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what is the good in self-flagellation?

I don't think there is much good in this.

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what is the good in pretending to eat human flesh, or worse actually believing you're consuming real human flesh?

Here I reckon you are talking about the Eucharist. Remember we are not talking about a piece of flesh but the real presence. Jesus' body, blood, soul, and divinity not in part but in whole is miraculously present in the Eucharist.

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Do you want to bet the atrocities perpetrated in the Crusades, the Inquisition, the religious wars and the various expulsions of Jews, Muslims, and others, were not defended at the time by theologians and church officials in terms of Christian morality?

I don't see how they could be defended. I know for sure that no body was defending the sack of Constantinople which contributed to the great schism.

Quote: FrGamble

This of course doesn't mean you shouldn't try to evangelize or convince atheists they are crazy.

Irony. noun. When someone who believes in invisible, intangible beings calls you crazy.

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I can guess you may be talking about circumcision. I've wondered why that was so important to the Jews. I wonder if like eating Kosher it protected them from a lot of the health problems of the day. Even today there are studies showing that circumcision helps fight against infection.

There are a ton of studies showing at best male circumcision is relatively harmless. Why, then, would a parent injure their child and make him cry for no reason at all? What would you think of a religious ritual in which an infant was slapped, even if this was only done once?

Not to mention the child is never even consulted. Do you want to guess what the circumcision rate would be for males if it couldn't be done before informed consent could be obtained? So close to zero as to be indistinguishable.

[q}Here I reckon you are talking about the Eucharist. Remember we are not talking about a piece of flesh but the real presence. Jesus' body, blood, soul, and divinity not in part but in whole is miraculously present in the Eucharist.

Quote: Nareed

What would you think of a religious ritual in which an infant was slapped, even if this was only done once?

Actually in the old rite for Confirmation this was done. The bishop gave you a quick slap. It was to symbolize that you were to defend the faith, endure persecution, and turn the other cheek.

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Not to mention the child is never even consulted. Do you want to guess what the circumcision rate would be for males if it couldn't be done before informed consent could be obtained? So close to zero as to be indistinguishable.

I think you are wrong there. Cleanliness is next to godliness and anything including a small minor snip to help to keep it clean is a good thing. But wait, why are we talking about this?!?

Quote: FrGamble

Cleanliness is next to godliness

Which is why the pagan custom of frequent baths gave way under Christianity to the belief that bathing was unhealthy.

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But wait, why are we talking about this?!?

I wanted to see whether you'd support mutilating children for religious reasons. You disappointed me by doing so.

Every adult who defends even minor genital mutilation should get circumcised by a mohel without anesthesia or sutures, and then tell me how good it all is.