Icons, what gives?

Interesting take on things Bob. I'm glad to see you recognize that you don't need scientific proof to believe in something.

Quote: FrGamble

Interesting take on things Bob. I'm glad to see you recognize that you don't need scientific proof to believe in something.

Evidence is the road to proof. But you
just can't proclaim something is evidence
without facts to back it up. You think you
see evidence of god, but what you really
see is just your opinion, which is evidence
of nothing.

Quote: Evenbob

Evidence is the road to proof.

One of the best things you have ever written.

You might remember that in this case we are using the same evidence, namely the fact that doing good makes us feel good. I could also use the evidence of these mysterious music prodigies as evidence as well. This evidence you accept and use to point towards reincarnation I feel they more logically point to God. It is interesting that both of the pieces of evidence I've mentioned most definitely point away from atheism.

Quote: FrGamble

This evidence you accept and use to point towards reincarnation I feel they more logically point to God.

You think everything points to god,
because you have no choice. You
aren't a free thinker, or even a
logical one. You are a trained thinker,
you've been taught what to think.
You toe the company line, that's
your job. Do you even see that?

Quote:

It is interesting that both of the pieces of evidence I've mentioned most definitely point away from atheism.

Only because you have no clue what
atheism is. You really don't. You
think it's something, when in reality
it's no-thing. It's a lack of something.
You constantly refer to it like it's a
belief system, like it's almost a religion.
Because of your brain washing by the
Church, I'm convinced you aren't capable
of understanding it.

But that's OK, you're still young. You might
wise up one day. Maybe not. It doesn't
matter in the long run scheme of things.
Nothing matters, really, unless you make
it matter.

Quote: Evenbob

You think everything points to god,
because you have no choice. You
aren't a free thinker, or even a
logical one.

You cut me deep, Bob, you cut me real deep just now.


Instead of slinging insults and nonsense why don't you just show me where I am wrong or illogical. I'm not a sophist; believe it or not I am here to learn and understand better the challenges that I know exist to my faith. Are you willing to accept challenges to your ideas and thoughts? Are you really free? Every time your ideas are seriously challenged it seems like you react by insults, condescending comments, personal judgments, and then change the topic.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm sorry you are offended and I am glad you have strong boundaries. However, I have been told many times on this forum that atheism is nothing, it is not a belief system and adds nothing to you or anyone who holds such a strange position. Your strong boundaries have nothing to do with your atheism. In fact I might argue that your atheism taken seriously could undermine those boundaries.

You are of course proving a truth that you don't need God to love mankind. It does come from some mysterious place deep inside. For some reason we feel incredible good when we do good things and help others. This is an undeniable truth. This truth fits perfectly in my belief system because we are made in the image and likeness of God and perfectly matches the teachings of Jesus Christ. In your lack of belief system it remains a mystery, but I'm still very glad you follow those feelings and live by them.

To me atheism is just simply living in the real world.
You can have very high morals without religion.
You can have a very strong conscious without religion.
I cannot hurt another human being because I have such a strong conscious.
This conscious comes from deep inside of me.
You dont need a belief system to be a good person.
To be a good person, it comes naturally.
The spiritual world, well, I simply dont give it a single thought.

To me feeling good about yourself doing good deeds has absolutely nothing to do with religion or atheism.
Its about what you are deep inside.
Its about the deep satisfaction you get from doing good deeds.

Quote: FrGamble

Yet whenever they do this they go against the fundamental nature of what it means to be a Christian.

So when a Pope calls on the faithful to act in the name of God, for the glory of God, on a holy mission for and from God, they're not being Christian?

Come, seriously, the Crusades where Europe-wide church policy for decades. You can't just dismiss the many sins of Christianity by saying these were not really Christian. Especially when your reflex reaction to any criticism of these is to point out they were not really so bad.

terapined, I agree with just about everything you said. I would only say that you do give the spiritual world some thought because you recognize this mysterious natural tendency to be a good person that dwells in all of us. Where does this deep inside conscience come from? It is something that is seemingly separate from us as it calls and encourages us to do the right thing even when we might not want to. Also you have probably thought about why if I am drawn to do good do I still struggle at times and fail to do the good I know I should do? Finally, I wonder if your very good conscience and your goodness have been in ways maybe unknown to you effected by religious thoughts and ideas that have become part of our culture or upbringing?


Oh yeah, I am sure you have also thought about what is the meaning of good, is it the same for everyone? Is it grounded in something more universal and firm than our own consciences? For you it is not killing or hurting another human being. What would you say to someone who said that their personal idea of good is to hurt someone?

Quote: Nareed

So when a Pope calls on the faithful to act in the name of God, for the glory of God, on a holy mission for and from God, they're not being Christian?

Come, seriously, the Crusades where Europe-wide church policy for decades. You can't just dismiss the many sins of Christianity by saying these were not really Christian. Especially when your reflex reaction to any criticism of these is to point out they were not really so bad.

What was the Pope calling them to do? To protect Christians who were driven from their homes, murdered, and killed. To reclaim Christian holy sites that had been taken over. If the Pope today called for military assistance to protect the Christians and other minorities that are being driven from their homes, killed, and tortured by ISIS would you call that un-Christian?

As you know from history the crusaders were not called to then go and rape, plunder, and kill on their own or to sack Constantinople. That and not the policy of the crusades is what is evil and non-christian.

Quote: FrGamble

As you know from history the crusaders were not called to then go and rape, plunder, and kill on their own or to sack Constantinople. That and not the policy of the crusades is what is evil and non-christian.

You know the very first victims of the Crusades were European Jews who did not occupy a square millimeter of "holy" lands. Eventually there was mass murder of people at the "holy" sites themselves. And as you pointed out plenty of rape and plunder, including the sack of the very Christian city of Constantinople (arguably the first Christian city in the world).

And the church at the time didn't put a stop to it.

I don't think even a tiny iota of what the various Crusaders did was unchristian, but much of it was evil.

Furthermore, is Jehovah so materialistic that it matters much to him who owns what piece of land? Or was that Jesus' idea? anyway, was there no possibility of peaceably negotiating with the Muslims for free access to the holy sites? I very much doubt Europe and Byzantium had nothing the Muslims wanted in return. And doesn't a part of the deity teach to love one's enemies and to turn the other cheek? Wouldn't a peaceful give and take with the Caliphate have been the "Christian" thing to do, as opposed to bloody war?

You tell me.