Easter Is Coming in 8 Weeks

February 13th, 2015 at 6:00:48 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
I'm curious which of the following three miraculous events would you all find hardest to believe:


4) A non-existent entity creates the universe, including the notion that he does actually exist even though he doesn't.

That's the miracle to end them all. It violates every rule of logic and embodies a contradiction.
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February 13th, 2015 at 6:31:10 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
Your last quote is the atheist motto.


No. Judging by Facebook memes, my own feelings, and what I recall of the Bible, the atheist motto is "Do you expect me to be impressed by that?" ;)

Quote:
You point out one of the most profound desires of every human person: Is there a way out of suffering?


Capitalism and liberty provided a much needed way out of suffering. truly free countries with both political and economic freedom prosper to the point that physical suffering is minimal for most healthy people. Even half-free countries do rather well.

Instead we can focus on the really important things in life: happiness.


Quote:
First of all there is the option to just accept this suffering as one of the cold hard facts of life.


Everything that exists is a fact. Some facts, like say the force of gravity, are immutable. Many more, however, are not. You can accept something as a fact and work to change it. There is no contradiction involved.

Quote:
Another way to describe this idea is atheism.


You've known me intellectually for years and this is what you think of me?

Quote:
You can call this Christian idea "pie in the sky" or opium for the Masses, but I can it practical hope and fulfillment for what we all long for, but have not the means to achieve.


Sure. just let the poor sods suffer, because once they die they'll go to heaven. Makes perfect sense.

Quote:
You can call it non-existent for whatever weird reason.


I call unicorns non-existent for the same "weird" reason: they don't exist.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
February 13th, 2015 at 7:37:49 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Nareed

Instead we can focus on the really important things in life: happiness.


We've gone back and forth on the definition of happiness but I think we can all agree eliminating suffering is part of happiness.


Quote:
Sure. just let the poor sods suffer, because once they die they'll go to heaven. Makes perfect sense.


You've known me intellectually for years and this is what you think of me? Come on, you know I have never said and would never say such drivel. I know you are content to offer no hope to those who suffer but to mock it only reveals how uncomfortable you are with your position. A straw man argument is needed to shield you from the fact that you are actually the one saying to let them suffer because one day they will die and there will be no justice, no peace, and no happiness. It makes sense without God, but it is awful and if I were you I would try such witty and mocking responses as well.

Quote:
I call unicorns non-existent for the same "weird" reason: they don't exist.


And you asked if sometimes I wondered about your intelligence? ;)
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 13th, 2015 at 7:52:57 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
You've known me intellectually for years and this is what you think of me?


No. But now you know how it feels when you begin bleating "Four legs good, two legs bad."

Quote:
I know you are content to offer no hope to those who suffer but to mock it only reveals how uncomfortable you are with your position.


On the other hand....

False expectations are not hope. Look, at one time I used to try to dodge uncomfortable invitations by saying "Maybe," and stalling on a definite answer. That's a false expectation. So I learned to politely say "No."

I favor charities that try to improve conditions in places where conditions are really bad. But what Africa, Latin America and other messed up places need is political and economic freedom. That will improve their lot and easer their suffering. That's not what churches tend to preach.

Quote:
And you asked if sometimes I wondered about your intelligence? ;)


I'm sure you recognize my dazzling intellect as being the gold standard you can aspire to. Not to mention my great modesty ;)
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
February 13th, 2015 at 11:44:17 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Nareed
4) A non-existent entity creates the universe, including the notion that he does actually exist even though he doesn't.
.


What I've learned in the last 3 months
of this discussion is this. People believe
in god for one of two reasons. It has
nothing to do with facts, of god existing
or not. That's irrelevant.

The biggest reason to believe is they were
taught to as children and it would never
occur to them to think otherwise. This
covers the majority of people.

The other reason is, they want to believe in
god. They need to, they have to, it bothers
them not to. Logic and reason get thrown
out the window. They spend the rest of
their life suspending disbelief and trying
to cram the square peg into the round hole,
telling the non believers they're the ones
that are wrong.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
February 13th, 2015 at 11:48:43 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
I just read that after the resurrection, Jesus was not even recognizable to his disciples. (wikipedia)

Conclusion: It wasn't him, yet eventually he convinced them that he was.

wikipedia isn't the end-all source, but it usually has good links. Unforunately in this case, the reference I am talking about just points to an isbn number, and you can't see the source material for yourself.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
February 13th, 2015 at 12:16:34 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Dalex64
Conclusion: It wasn't him, yet eventually he convinced them that he was.


It's tempting to jump into this explanation and rife it, but questions arise: unrecognizable how? Did he seemed badly wounded or scarred? Did he seem taller, shorter, wider, etc? Did his face change?

That beside it being in Wikipedia, which needs to be verified independently 90% of the time.
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
February 13th, 2015 at 12:19:52 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
What I've learned in the last 3 months
of this discussion is this. People believe
in god for one of two reasons. It has
nothing to do with facts, of god existing
or not. That's irrelevant.


I'm embarrassed for you if this is what you have learned from these discussions. Everything depends on God's existence which all the facts point us to. Is there a fact that you have that points to God's non-existence? I guess this is why you have personally come to the conclusion that facts are irrelevant, as they obviously are in your case.

Quote:
The biggest reason to believe is they were
taught to as children and it would never
occur to them to think otherwise. This
covers the majority of people.


Since I guess I am the token Christian here need I remind you that this does not apply to me. You are extrapolating again your own experience and making assumptions that have no basis or grounding in reality. Every Christian I know has had periods of their lives when their faith has been challenged, where they think otherwise, then when they come back to the faith they are stronger for it.

Quote:
The other reason is, they want to believe in
god. They need to, they have to, it bothers
them not to. Logic and reason get thrown
out the window.


This is patronizing, shallow, and offensive and probably doesn't deserve a comment other than to point out that in saying such things it is you who have thrown logic and reason out the window, along with decorum. I truly want to and desire to have a good discussion with you and this is why this post troubles me so. It shows me that you are so closed minded and have been taught such things as a child that it would never occur to you to think otherwise. I am at wits end and my finger is on the block button.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 13th, 2015 at 12:24:22 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Dalex64
I just read that after the resurrection, Jesus was not even recognizable to his disciples. (wikipedia)

Conclusion: It wasn't him, yet eventually he convinced them that he was.

wikipedia isn't the end-all source, but it usually has good links. Unforunately in this case, the reference I am talking about just points to an isbn number, and you can't see the source material for yourself.


It's actually an old but rare objection to the Resurrection. Most people when they begin exploring it realize that it doesn't hold any more water than the other theory that Jesus was just mostly dead and recovered from a Roman Crucifixion. The only explanation that fits the historical facts is the miraculous and glorious Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
February 13th, 2015 at 12:41:42 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
The only explanation that fits the historical facts is the miraculous and glorious Resurrection of Jesus Christ.


The only explanation is that it never happened.

Supposedly Jesus was a big deal in Judea. I mean there was great controversy and much talk. Now, if this be so, then if he had resurrected and hung around for weeks afterwards, as the myth states, there would have been a record of it somewhere. The story would have spread like wildfire to neighboring provinces, Roman soldiers returning home from duty in Judea would spread it around, and so on.

If, on the other hand, Jesus died and remained dead, and his disciples, followers, hangers-on came up with the resurrection years later, then wrote down the account of it, the expectation would be of no records anywhere of this event that never really took place.

The question is: are there any records of the resurrection outside those written by Jesus' disciples?
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER