Easter Is Coming in 8 Weeks

Clearly this thread title needs updating.

Quote: TheCesspit

Clearly this thread title needs updating.

We can keep it going for next year, too :)

Pagan miracles were as grandiose as those claimed by monotheistic religions. Consider:

Marius told a story of coming upon an eagle's nest containing seven new-born eagles (perhaps in a dream, I forget exactly). The eagle was favored by Jupiter, so this experience meant Marius would be consul of the Roman Republic seven times. Eventually he steamrollered his way into just that, quite brutally, too.

Tutmosis (sp?) IV took a nap under the Sphinx, which at the time was covered in sand almost to its neck. In a dream the Sphinx told him "Uncover me and I'll make you king of Egypt." A stela (a stone with a round top and carvings used in Egypt to mark important or momentous occasions) at the Sphinx records this miracle, and Tutmosis IV became king of Egypt. Oh, he did clear the sand off the Sphinx.

This is particularly interesting because the Sphinx wasn't formally even a god. It's the head of a Pharaoh on a lion's body. It was carved because when Kefer's Pyramid and mortuary complex was being built, a huge stone stood in the way. The builders decided to carve a sphinx rather than move the boulder.

In the story of Joseph, the Pharaoh, whoever he was, has dreams which Joseph interprets. These dreams save Egypt from a long drought, allegedly. Joseph may be the star of that story, but it was the Pharaoh who had the prophetic dream. Naturally the Torah doesn't say so, but the dreams could have come from Amun, Ra, Osiris or even the Aton.

Then there are the Greek myths, the Iliad, the Odyssey, Roman myths, Sumerian myths, Babylonian myths, and that's just along the Mediterranean, and only the better known civilizations.

Set against this, a Christian miracle is just more of the same. Pointing out to Christianity's longevity as proof of said miracle, well, that brings up an interesting thought.

See, while no single religion has spread over space and time like Christianity, fact is most pagan, polytheistic religions of antiquity were all very much alike. Gods spread between religions and it was common for travelers and conquerors to make offerings to the gods of the lands they visited or conquered. In essence, polytheism was a single religion, splintered in ritual and style of worship, but with pretty much the same belief: make an offering to the god, represented in sculpture or painting, in order to get something in return(*).

And that lasted far longer than Christianity has existed.


(*) Judaism was an exception. Jews did not make offerings to other gods, and may not have expected their god, Jehovah, to give them anything in return. Nevertheless, the style of ritual did involve offerings to their god. The other difference was Jews never made a representation of Jehovah.

Ironically today Jews don't make offerings of any kind, going so far as to not even leave flowers at gravesites. While Christians do make offerings to physical representations of Jesus, Mary and some saints (I've seen them), usually in the hope of obtaining something in return.

I'm curious which of the following three miraculous events would you all find hardest to believe:

1) The universe was created out of nothing.

2) The universe is eternal and exists without ever having a cause.

3) Jesus Christ was Resurrected in a glorified body.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm curious which of the following three miraculous events would you all find hardest to believe:

1) The universe was created out of nothing.

2) The universe is eternal and exists without ever having a cause.

3) Jesus Christ was Resurrected in a glorified body.

You can't create something out of nothing.
The universe always being here is neither
an event or a miracle. The Jesus myth is
just a that, a myth. One of many.

Quote: Nareed

You know what would be better? Being shown or led to a way out of suffering. A real one. Not one involving a non-existent after life after a very real death. All that tells me is "Life's a bitch and then you die."

Your last quote is the atheist motto.

You point out one of the most profound desires of every human person: Is there a way out of suffering? We all desire this. (N.B. This means that implicitly we all know there is a problem with humanity, namely that we all suffer) So what are the practical ways of finding a way out of suffering.

First of all there is the option to just accept this suffering as one of the cold hard facts of life. Babs gave a cool sounding term to this idea like "cold hard reason". Another way to describe this idea is atheism. The reality is that life is unjust, unfair, and painful for the vast majority of the world. We should strive to make our suffering, and if we can do so without sacrificing, the suffering of others as minimal as possible. However, the only "salvation" is pure death. Nothingness and meaningless await as the great equalizer and that is where we are all heading. The practical solution here is to eliminate God and just try to avoid suffering as much as we can. Of course, we all realize that none of us can truly avoid it completely, so we need to make the most out of this short life, perhaps by living a good and kind life because for some reason that seems to work and make life bearable at least. By removing God we can practically deal with suffering. However, in the process of removing God we have also removed something fairly important - hope.

Then there is the Christian response to suffering. It is that God knows and understands our suffering, He suffers with us - just look at the Crucifix to remind you of His loving sacrifice and His presence even in the midst of suffering. What is more this God-man Jesus Christ has ultimately defeated the problem (sin) and our ancient adversary (death). Christianity gives us hope that suffering will not have the last laugh, that our lives of goodness and kindness have ultimate meaning (maybe that's the reason living this way seems so natural to us all). It promises that those who die unjustly, those who die young, those who are victims, or who live in poverty do not simply live meaningless lives, but receive in the life to come the longed for justice, peace, life, and glory in the joys of Heaven where there is no more sin or hate or evil - only love.

You can call this Christian idea "pie in the sky" or opium for the Masses, but I can it practical hope and fulfillment for what we all long for, but have not the means to achieve. You can call it non-existent for whatever weird reason. However, I refuse to believe in the non-existent and depressing idea that the only way to deal with our human problem of suffering is to accept it, be selfish and at the same time kind and loving so that we die and none of it meant anything at all.

Quote: Evenbob

You can't create something out of nothing.
The universe always being here is neither
an event or a miracle. The Jesus myth is
just a that, a myth. One of many.

You can't create something out of nothing yet the universe that is something just is here?!? Come on man think about that. You are just avoiding the question. If you believe that something has always been here and is eternal that this is an eternal miracle. Jesus is not a myth He is a historical person that whether you recognize the truth of the Resurrection of not has to be wrestled with because of His miraculous impact on human history.

Quote: FrGamble

You can't create something out of nothing yet the universe that is something just is here?!? Come on man think about that. .

That's why it's called the big mystery.
You can't think about it, you're stuck
in time. So we make up all these
outlandish examples for it's existence.
A fish doesn't have the capacity to
figure out math. We don't have the
capacity to figure out why the universe
is here. Mystics sit in meditation for
years and say there are no words to
speak that explain it. So why try, just
accept it.

Yes, we are speaking of big mysteries. What you are describing sounds an awful like a miracle. The question then is why you reject out of hand the Resurrection yet are so willing to sit in meditation and accept other big mysteries.

Quote: FrGamble

but I call it practical hope

Hope ends nothing, hope solves nothing. Hope
is a maybe, hope is a what if. Hope keeps
people going, but eventually has to end
up somewhere. That's what religion sells,
constant recycled hope, generation to
generation. It only can be stretched just
so far before nobody buys it anymore.