Easter Is Coming in 8 Weeks

Quote: Nareed

You should inform your brethren of this. They insist on keeping the dying, bleeding, gory Jesus depicted in their churches. Perhaps they don't know which Jesus is the right one?

That's a good point Nareed. They always talk
about the glory of the resurrected Jesus, but
the only one we see is the suffering, almost
dead Jesus hanging on a cross. The bigger
churches have a life size version of him on
the wall behind the alter.

The crucifixion isn't the miracle of the religion,
it was a common practice. So why is Jesus
on the cross the symbol. The only explanation
I can find is, it's a constant reminder that every
time you sin, Jesus remains on that cross suffering
for you. Good grief.

It's not unlike a friend dramatically saving your life,
and reminding you of it every single time he see's
you and rubbing in the guilt you feel. Never forget
the Church runs on guilt.

Quote: FrGamble

They didn't desperately need this miracle, .

Of course they did! You yourself have said
without the resurrection there is no religion.
It's the cornerstone, it's what Christianity is
built on. Now you're downplaying it's importance?
You can't have it both ways.

I reckon Nareed sees some gruesome depictions of the Crucifixion in Mexico. Some of the most realistic and almost hard to look at images of Jesus I have ever seen all seem to come from Central or South America. Understanding why that is might help you realize the power of seeing a Crucifix. It is not about guilt or about seeing your sins, it is about recognizing that Jesus suffers injustice with you. You are not alone in your suffering - Jesus suffers too. As you can imagine, for a people who suffer this is very meaningful.

It is very interesting that the more affluent a community is the less they depict the suffering of Christ. In our area we even have a few Churches I joking say have a "Resurrectifix" This is the Risen Jesus arms outstretched, no suffering noticeable seemingly flying off the cross. In wealthy parts of Europe they even have Jesus in regal garments and a fancy crown reigning from the cross already in glory.

Just my little theory here, but in those more well to do areas of our world, they people don't like being reminded that there is great suffering, like the one Jesus went through, taking place all over the world. They don't want to identify their Lord with those who suffer, because they kind of like going about their lives in relative peace and comfort without thinking too much of the poor, the needy, and the suffering. Just a thought.

Quote: Evenbob

Of course they did! You yourself have said
without the resurrection there is no religion.
It's the cornerstone, it's what Christianity is
built on. Now you're downplaying it's importance?
You can't have it both ways.

Without the Resurrection there is no Christianity! It is the most important event in the history of humanity. Don't misunderstand me! You seem to be saying the followers of Jesus needed to make up this miracle if it didn't happen. There is no possible way they were going to do that. First of all, how? How do you make up the fact that Jesus was raised if it didn't happen? How are you going to convince anyone of that without proof? How are you going to withstand the torrent of oppression, persecution, and questions that will rain down upon you from every corner of society? How will you even pull it off, a rag tag bunch of uneducated fisherman and women? No they were waiting it out in hiding, fearful for their lives. Content and maybe even looking forward to putting this period of their lives behind them if Jesus was not risen. When they saw the Resurrected Jesus everything changed, literally everything changed!

Quote: FrGamble

You seem to be saying the followers of Jesus needed to make up this miracle if it didn't happen. There is no possible way they were going to do that. First of all, how? How do you make up the fact that Jesus was raised if it didn't happen?

How does any urban legend get started? It
took a long time for the early church to get
going. It took decades before it even came
them that they better write down what
happened. By that time the legend had
grown enough that it needed some credibility.
They don't even know who wrote the Gospels
in the Bible, that's how unorganized the
early religion was. Ragtag doesn't even cover
it. Yet we're supposed to take every word of
what happened as absolute truth.

I don't think so.

Quote: FrGamble

It is not about guilt or about seeing your sins, .

Sure it is, it's all about that. It's a death
worshiping religion. Jesus DIED for you
on the cross, look up in Church, there
he still is, dying before your eyes every
single day. Then he rose from the DEAD,
to save you from going to hell when you
DIE. It's all about death. Yet somehow they
twist the death message to make it a
life affirming message, and people actually
buy into that. Astounding and gruesome
and disquieting in this age of science and
reason.

Quote: FrGamble

Understanding why that is might help you realize the power of seeing a Crucifix.

No need. I already feel disgust, revulsion, and a powerful sense of righteousness that I don't buy into what the church is selling.

Quote:

It is not about guilt or about seeing your sins, it is about recognizing that Jesus suffers injustice with you. You are not alone in your suffering - Jesus suffers too. As you can imagine, for a people who suffer this is very meaningful.

It would be if Jesus were alive and would tell them this. What a controversial rabbi did or suffered 2,000 years ago is hardly relevant to my life. Plenty of people have suffered. The followers of Spartacus were crucified in wholesale lots. That's not relevant to my life either.

You know what would be better? Being shown or led to a way out of suffering. A real one. Not one involving a non-existent after life after a very real death. All that tells me is "Life's a bitch and then you die."

Quote: FrGamble

Without the Resurrection there is no Christianity!

This is patently false. Let me explain:

1) There was no resurrection.
2) Christianity dominated for about 1,500 years in Europe and less than that in the middle East and the Americas. In fact it's still thriving.
3) Therefore the resurrection was not necessary for the existence of Christianity.

Quote:

How do you make up the fact that Jesus was raised if it didn't happen?

How do you make up any miracle when no miracle ever happened? Parting the Red Sea, Resurrecting Osiris, Rome's Miracle of the Rains (it did rain, but prove the gods did it), and every other single unproven claim ever made.

You have so little faith in human inventiveness and creativity. Fiction is a recent development only in the sense that the authors admit their stories are made up, with little or no basis in fact. But the making up of stories, characters, plots and so on goes back to the time before writing was invented. It's a rich source that will last as long as our species does.

The question isn't how someone or a group of people made up a miracle. The question is how could they not?

Quote: Nareed

The question isn't how someone or a group of people made up a miracle. The question is how could they not?

The ridiculous superstitious things that
people believed 2000 years ago are too
numerous to mention. Someone rising
from the dead wasn't even that uncommon.
Didn't Jesus himself raise the dead, supposedly?

When ignorance reigns, people will and did
believe anything and everything.

Quote: FrGamble

Science helps religion to understand the natural world and what it has to teach us about the universe.

Science does that for anyone who cares to study science.

Quote:

Since they are both different disciplines seeking for truth they can never truly contradict one another.

Science seeks truth. Religion seeks rationalizations for dogma and belief, if it seeks anything at all.

Quote:

Religion helps science to pursue its experiments in ethical and moral ways.

If religion had an inkling to morality, it would destroy itself.

Quote:

Religion inspires science and increases our thirst to be curious about the universe we live in.

I've heard many scientists say what got them interested in science. I've heard things like seeing an eclipse, visiting a museum, visiting a zoo, seeing something unusual, an innate insatiable curiosity, and even having watched Star Trek.

I've yet to hear of one mentioning any kind of religion.

Granted I don't know what drew every scientist into science. But if religion were as common a draw as Star Trek, I'm sure I'd have heard of it by now.