Confessional

Quote: Ayecarumba

What I mean is that have you been truly forgiven by another for one (or more) of your own transgressions? If you have not had that experience of grace, I don't think we, as the selfish people we are, can understand how to forgive. It is not in our nature.

Beautifully said and very important point. If we haven't experienced this amazing grace of forgiveness from others, and unfortunately many of us have not, we can also learn and understand forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

Quote: FrGamble

If we haven't experienced this amazing grace of forgiveness from others, and unfortunately many of us have not,

Nobody has! That's the whole point of dreaming
up the fantasy that Jesus forgives you for everything.
Nobody on earth will really forgive you for the
stupid stunts you pull, but Jesus will.

Unconfirmable, unrealistic pie in the sky nonsense.

I disagree. Check out the experiences of John Newton and William Wilberforce in 2006's Amazing Grace. Wilberforce worked for decades without success to abolish slavery. Newton was a former slave ship captain.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I disagree. Check out the experiences of John Newton and William Wilberforce in 2006's Amazing Grace. Wilberforce worked for decades without success to abolish slavery. Newton was a former slave ship captain.

You take their word for it, doesn't mean it
happened. I can only go with what I've
seen in my own life. I've never seen one
person really forgive another. Oh, they
pretend they do, they may even think
they have. But the transgression is always
there, right under the surface, waiting to
pop up. Sometimes decades later. They
delude themselves into thinking they've
forgiven and forgotten. Easy to do, too
easy in a lot of cases.

This is how it works. You have to live or
work with a person, or they're a neighbor
or in your family. In order to deal with them
you talk yourself into thinking you forgive
them, when all you've really done is apply
a bandage to the wound. It never really heals.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I disagree. Check out the experiences of John Newton and William Wilberforce in 2006's Amazing Grace. Wilberforce worked for decades without success to abolish slavery. Newton was a former slave ship captain.

Great movie! There is a reason that song is so powerful.

Quote: Evenbob

You take their word for it, doesn't mean it
happened. I can only go with what I've
seen in my own life.

Makes sense, I can't discount your personal experience or in this case lack of it. As someone already said the notion of true forgiveness is a freaking mystery until we receive it.

Quote:

I've never seen one
person really forgive another.

Take a look at a crucifix.

Quote:

They delude themselves into thinking they've
forgiven and forgotten.

Again this is the main point we seem to be discussing. Forgiveness does not equal forgetfulness. Forgiveness allows the wrong that was done to you and the one who committed it to cease having power over you. You still remember and most likely have learned from the whole experience. You can choose whether or not you would like to allow that person to rebuild the trust they lost.

Maybe think of it as a scar left over from surgery. Forgiveness is the surgery and afterwards you have healed, but what remains is a nasty scar that will never go away and maybe some limited range of motion. Forgiveness heals and closes an open wound, but it can't magically make whatever happened disappear.

Quote: FrGamble

Forgiveness does not equal forgetfulness.

For it to work, it has to. You can't have one
without the other. My best friend from HS
married a truly stupid, insufferable 19 yr old
girl in 1976. I never forgave him. The few
times I've seen him since then, she treats
him, in front of other people, like he's dog
crap on the bottom of her shoe. I don't see
him because I know I would eventually be
arrested for knocking her on her fat ass.

Quote: Evenbob

For it to work, it has to. You can't have one
without the other. My best friend from HS
married a truly stupid, insufferable 19 yr old
girl in 1976. I never forgave him. The few
times I've seen him since then, she treats
him, in front of other people, like he's dog
crap on the bottom of her shoe. I don't see
him because I know I would eventually be
arrested for knocking her on her fat ass.

Have you ever noticed how often the first thing a guy has to get rid of after he gets married, is all his old friends?

There is a reason for that. Married women usually detest single friends of their spouse.

Quote: petroglyph

. Married women usually detest single friends of their spouse.

Thats part of the transition from single to married, life becomes couples only...women don't like single women around their husband at all.

Most macho types are proud of their 'I seldom forgive and I never forget' attitude: its part of the compete, win, be first off the elevator, never apologize (its a sign of weakness), never let an opponent finish their sentence, etc. etc.

Sorry to change the topic, but I have a question for FrG.

Suppose an adult in the confessional says he stole a candy bar as a kid from a store that is still there. Would you?

A. Give him x Hail Marys and an Act of Contrition?
B. A + mail the store an anonymous money order for the cost of the candy in today's dollars?
C. B, except not anonymous but with with a personal note of apology.
D. Other (explain)

Thank you.