Confessional

Quote: FrGamble

There is scientific evidence that seems to point towards confirmation of the universe having a beginning.



You are again confusing evidence with "proof".



There you go again, see above.



Sure there is. Are the people trustworthy, consistent, of sane mind? Does the same experience occur over different time periods, cultures, places, and people?



Incorrectly so.

There is evidence that the universe had a beginning and you put forth a hypothesis as to the cause.
There is no evidence of what caused the universe to begin.

As for confusing evidence with proof, it looks like we agree that there is no proof that god is real. I will state again that the evidence supports multiple explainations which have not been disproven.
As you stated, since there is no evidence to the contrary for any of these theories, you MUST keep an open mind and accept them as possibilities.

Did God really kill nearly everyone?

Quote: FrGamble

You act as if the king was the only one committing these crimes. You also act as if God did not send 10 warnings all ignored by the king. It is clear that God wanted no one to die in this incident.

You act as though torturing an entire nation and killing innocent boys and babies wholesale is an act of love.

Fortunately for you, the Exodus is as relevant as the plot of Star Trek V, or at least as related to reality.

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Exactly one can only imagine the atrocities.

Maybe they were sending plagues of insects and disease? Oops, sorry. Wrong character.

Oh, I know, maybe they destroyed cities and turned people into pillars of salt! Oh, no, wait. My bad.

Maybe they messed with people's minds and made them speak alien languages? Nope. Wrong character again.

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To read the whole Bible is to experience the amazing love and mercy of God.

Ok. is there some other version of the Bible I don't know about? One without so much rape, murder and pillage?

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If you want some suggestions in regard to passages to read I would be happy to provide them for you,

That's the funniest thing I've heard all week (but the weeks is young and this thread is going on, so...)

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The atrocities of the Crusades were rejected immediately and clearly by the Pope.

That explains why more Crusades were launched, one after the other.

It does not explain that the biggest "success" in the whole sorry mess was the sack of Constantinople.

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I believe that it was the personal atheism of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and the cast of morons that enabled them to do the things they did. No God fearing man would ever be able to think or do the things they did.

You can believe it was the unicorn tears their mothers fed them with their breast milk for all I care. That doesn't make it so.

What doesn't get talked about much is the gigantic meat grinder otherwise known as World War I, fought entirely among Christian nations and a Muslim one. Yes, no one expected an extended war of attrition. But once they got one, why keep feeding men as cannon fodder to hold three yards or to take three yards of land? Why do so for three whole years?

In some ways it's worse than purposeful atrocities, as the British, the French, the Russians, the Germans, good Christians all, and the Turks, killed as many of their own people in futile battles as they killed enemy troops.

Or are you going to tell me it was the atheism of the Head of the Church of England, the Kaiser, etc. that was responsible?


See? you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote: FrGamble

You don't seem to grasp that you are making a positive claim that there is 100% for certain no God.

You don't seem to grasp how any of this works.

Let's try two examples:

1) Stephen Hawking suddenly announces "Dark Matter is made up of unicorn tears. The mystery is solved!"

So you approach him and say "Why, Professor Hawking, that is most amazing! What is your evidence for it?"

Suppose he tells you "What is your evidence that it's not?"

Now, would you agree that dark matter is made up of unicorn tears because an authority figure tells you so, and you cannot prove it's not? Or would you maintain dark matter is not made up of unicorn tears, regardless of whether you can prove it's not?


2) A number of crime have been committed. There is no evidence to implicate you in any of them, but you're charged with all of them. At trial the judge tells you "Of course the prosecution has presented no evidence for your guilt, but can you prove you didn't commit any of them? If not, you will be found guilty and sentenced to hard labor at the unicorn tears mine for life.

I hope you can see that it' not possible to prove your innocence in various crimes, many of which lack any probative evidence at all.


Now, what is your evidence that Tlaloc and Huixilopoxtli are not real, and we shouldn't begin offering human sacrifices at their altars?

Quote: Dalex64

Aren't we pretty sure that there was no flood?

I think it's safe to say there was one or more catastrophic floods in the very early stages of the bronze age, or perhaps the late stages of the stone age, in one or several places in Mesopotamia. There are far too many legends about really bad floods, and they may be based on real events.

It's also safe to say the legends vastly exaggerate the actual floods involved.

And it's certain there was no flood that covered the whole effing world in water (there isn't enough water on Earth to do that), and that a handful of people in the Middle east couldn't possibly have gathered two animals of every species, including those thousands of miles away and accessible only from the ocean, and that if such a flood had happened somehow no plants died, etc. etc.

Back to reality, if houses and buildings were made mostly of mud brick, and two rivers like the Tigris and Euphrates flooded badly for some reason, the devastation in the cities involved would have been great. Mud brick doesn't fare well in moist climates, imagine what a flood would do to it.

Quote: FrGamble

For the majority of time that Christianity has existed there has been only one Church.

Christianity arose in the First Century CE. By the IV Century there were at least four splinters: Arianism, Monophysitism, Donatism and the official Roman Nicaean creed.

By now we're in the XXI Century CE. By my calculations this means 16 centuries, approx. 1,600 years, have passed. This would mean a period of about 400 years is the majority of the time in a period comprising 2,000 years.

Do you see why I don't take Christian claims of reason seriously?

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The Reformation is why there are so many other beliefs.

The reformation in the 16th Century CE is the reason why Nicaean Christians in the IV Century CE called Donatists heretics because they advocated forgiving such Christians as had chosen life over martyrdom during the last round or persecution?

"How many monophysites left?" to be asked in 3....2....1

Quote: Dalex64

There is evidence that the universe had a beginning and you put forth a hypothesis as to the cause.

I don't think there is.

The Big Bang Theory states the entirety of energy now existent in the universe was contained in a dimensionless point which suddenly expanded. Even if that marks the absolute beginning of the universe, and nothing existed anywhere at all, the energy was there.

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Did God really kill nearly everyone?

That's actually a common characteristic of bronze age deities. The Egyptians have a version of it, where Ra orders Hathor, in her guise or persona of Sechmed, the Lioness, to kill all humans. Eventually he regrets his decision, but Sechmed won't stop. So Ra dyes lots of beer red using ochre, to make it look like blood, and the lioness goddess drinks it up, gets drunk and passes out.

This event was commemorated with an annual festival, during which everyone drank as much as they could hold.

Quote: Dalex64

As for confusing evidence with proof, it looks like we agree that there is no proof that god is real. I will state again that the evidence supports multiple explainations which have not been disproven.

There is proof for precious little in this world. There is evidence that you are a real person based on your intelligent posts but it could be a machine. The evidence supports both but reason uses the evidence to conclude that you are a real person. I haven't disproven the other explanations such as you are a ghost or an AI computer program but I can reasonably and correctly believe you are real. Do you see how this works? This is how we live life on a daily basis. You do this faith based reasonable conclusions based on evidence and experience a million times a day.

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As you stated, since there is no evidence to the contrary for any of these theories, you MUST keep an open mind and accept them as possibilities.

I will keep an open mind in new evidence or experiences present themselves but keeping an open mind doesn't mean I stop believing what I know to be true.

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Did God really kill nearly everyone?

No.

Quote: Nareed

You act as though torturing an entire nation and killing innocent boys and babies wholesale is an act of love.

You act as trying to correct a slaving culture and free an oppressed people is an act of hatred.

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Fortunately for you, the Exodus is as relevant as the plot of Star Trek V, or at least as related to reality.

Unfortunately for you the Exodus is relevant as many archeologists and historians will tell you. Did you read any of the links I provided?

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Ok. is there some other version of the Bible I don't know about? One without so much rape, murder and pillage?

No its the same Bible, just not the cherry picked and out of context stories you are familiar with.

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It does not explain that the biggest "success" in the whole sorry mess was the sack of Constantinople.

As I think you know that was the greatest and most lasting failure of the whole sorry mess.

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What doesn't get talked about much is the gigantic meat grinder otherwise known as World War I, fought entirely among Christian nations and a Muslim one. Yes, no one expected an extended war of attrition. But once they got one, why keep feeding men as cannon fodder to hold three yards or to take three yards of land? Why do so for three whole years?

In some ways it's worse than purposeful atrocities, as the British, the French, the Russians, the Germans, good Christians all, and the Turks, killed as many of their own people in futile battles as they killed enemy troops.

Good point, I agree war is hell and always a failure of humanity. Tell me though when before have we ever seen the wonton and capricious slaughtering and genocide of people before such atheistic leaders as Hitler, Stalin, and the cast of morons we saw in the 20th century. Are you trying to say that their atheism did not contribute in any way to their political and moral positions?

See? you don't know what you're talking about.

Quote: Nareed

You don't seem to grasp how any of this works.

Let's try two examples:

1) Stephen Hawking suddenly announces "Dark Matter is made up of unicorn tears. The mystery is solved!"

So you approach him and say "Why, Professor Hawking, that is most amazing! What is your evidence for it?"

Suppose he tells you "What is your evidence that it's not?"

Now, would you agree that dark matter is made up of unicorn tears because an authority figure tells you so, and you cannot prove it's not? Or would you maintain dark matter is not made up of unicorn tears, regardless of whether you can prove it's not?

I think we could only agree that dark matter exists and not what exactly it is made of. Just like you should be able to admit that God aka "a cause of the universe" exists without knowing exactly what it is made of.

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2) A number of crime have been committed. There is no evidence to implicate you in any of them, but you're charged with all of them. At trial the judge tells you "Of course the prosecution has presented no evidence for your guilt, but can you prove you didn't commit any of them? If not, you will be found guilty and sentenced to hard labor at the unicorn tears mine for life.

I hope you can see that it' not possible to prove your innocence in various crimes, many of which lack any probative evidence at all.

In a court of law and in regards to our believes we can only use the evidence presented to make conclusions. In a court of law there are much higher standards in regards to the evidence needed to "prove" someone is guilty. You cannot prove someone is guilty without evidence. In real life without evidence you cannot prove either guilt or innocence without evidence. I have presented evidence, that the defense strenuously objects to, as to why there is God. You have provided no evidence at all for your position. It is not reasonable for you, outside of the courtroom and in real life, to hold that there is no God without anything to support your crazy position. Do you not see how this works?

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Now, what is your evidence that Tlaloc and Huixilopoxtli are not real, and we shouldn't begin offering human sacrifices at their altars?

Again in real life there is no evidence that either are real and plenty of evidence as to why we should not offer human sacrifices. In fact if these deities required such sacrifices that would be strong evidence that they are not real. I have evidence that Jesus Christ and the religion He started is real so why should I even consider Tlaloc when there is nothing that could be considered evidence for its existence?

It might be helpful if you thought of this forum as a debate rather than a courtroom and I think you would better understand what we both need to do in order to present our arguments.

Quote: Nareed

I think it's safe to say there was one or more catastrophic floods in the very early stages of the bronze age, or perhaps the late stages of the stone age, in one or several places in Mesopotamia. There are far too many legends about really bad floods, and they may be based on real events.

It's also safe to say the legends vastly exaggerate the actual floods involved.

I agree.