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Quote: AZDuffman

Happened a lot. Rock Hudson was married. It was a plot line in "Mad Men" with Bob Benson wanting to marry Joan so he had the right appearance for a GM Exec. The woman gets the married life, the man gets protection from being found out.



And for the who knows how manyth time, you are misusing "pedophile." We are talking gay males and adolescent males, not children. How many times does it need to be shown to you that lots of gay males make it a little game to turn out teen males? That is what the priests, the BSA leaders, Jerry Sandusky, and Pat Patterson were about.

If these guys "were not interested in the gender" of their victims, how come we have not heard stories of widespread abuse of female teens by men in these kinds of positions? Hmmm?

I'll take your word for it on the first part don’t know enough about it or who those people are.

But, I don't think that I am. What is your defintion of pedophile? Somebody who is attracted to somebody who is pre-purberty (let's say 12 to make it simple)?

As for widespread abuse of female teens, did you miss the whole Jeffry Epstien story? Did you miss the UK grooming stories? The endless news stories of girls who are trafficked as minors all over the world? Sorry, but it does not just happen to boys....

There are endless examples of adult males having sex with minor females..... There are probably far more examples of men abusing underage females, but its hard to find a breakdown since it is such a shadowy issue.....

I will agree that women are almost never pedophilies or have sex with minors (yes there are a couple examples you can find over the last decade, but its a statistical non-issue).... Its almost always men who are the violators (generally straight men, I am sure you will disagree, but that is the reality)....

Quote: Gandler

I'll take your word for it on the first part don’t know enough about it or who those people are.

But, I don't think that I am. What is your defintion of pedophile? Somebody who is attracted to somebody who is pre-purberty (let's say 12 to make it simple)?

As for widespread abuse of female teens, did you miss the whole Jeffry Epstien story? Did you miss the UK grooming stories? The endless news stories of girls who are trafficked as minors all over the world? Sorry, but it does not just happen to boys....

There are endless examples of adult males having sex with minor females..... There are probably far more examples of men abusing underage females, but its hard to find a breakdown since it is such a shadowy issue.....

I will agree that women are almost never pedophilies or have sex with minors (yes there are a couple examples you can find over the last decade, but its a statistical non-issue).... Its almost always men who are the violators (generally straight men, I am sure you will disagree, but that is the reality)....

Oh god, here we go again.

Duffman has always had this weird fringe view that straight men can’t be pedophiles.

Seriously.

Quote: AZDuffman

If these guys "were not interested in the gender" of their victims, how come we have not heard stories of widespread abuse of female teens by men in these kinds of positions? Hmmm?

Duffman is afraid to respond to my posts directly, so could someone mention Larry Nassar to him?

Quote: Gandler

I'll take your word for it on the first part don’t know enough about it or who those people are.

But, I don't think that I am. What is your defintion of pedophile? Somebody who is attracted to somebody who is pre-purberty (let's say 12 to make it simple)?

As for widespread abuse of female teens, did you miss the whole Jeffry Epstien story? Did you miss the UK grooming stories? The endless news stories of girls who are trafficked as minors all over the world? Sorry, but it does not just happen to boys....

There are endless examples of adult males having sex with minor females..... There are probably far more examples of men abusing underage females, but its hard to find a breakdown since it is such a shadowy issue.....

I will agree that women are almost never pedophilies or have sex with minors (yes there are a couple examples you can find over the last decade, but its a statistical non-issue).... Its almost always men who are the violators (generally straight men, I am sure you will disagree, but that is the reality)....

And quite often the females are willing on one level or another. Either for cash or because they are just trying to rope an older man.

I do not quite get where you are going with this. Showing that females are trafficed does not change that gay males often target teenage boys. And remember, 1 gay male targeting teenage boys has to be balanced by 99 straight males targeting teenage girls.

Finally, you are showing the defense of gays when attacked perfectly. You are defending them to the end.

Quote: AZDuffman

And quite often the females are willing on one level or another. Either for cash or because they are just trying to rope an older man.

This is just an insane point. Do you really think the 100K plus (that is a lowball estimate) of underage females who are trafficked are doing it willingly or for the money. And, even if they were, does that make it right? ……..

Quote: AZDuffman

I do not quite get where you are going with this. Showing that females are trafficed does not change that gay males often target teenage boys. And remember, 1 gay male targeting teenage boys has to be balanced by 99 straight males targeting teenage girls.

No, I am showing that heterosexual men also have sex with underage people. Look at the comparisons of trafficked males vs females, its not quite 99-1, but spoiler alert, far more females are trafficked (which by your logic means far more heterosexual men are predators).

Quote: AZDuffman

Finally, you are showing the defense of gays when attacked perfectly. You are defending them to the end.

Yes I am. I am defending "gays" not pedophiles.

I would never defend a gay man who engages in immoral or illegal behavior just because he was gay.....

I am defending against the presumption that most gay men are sex predators, which is just not true.....

Sexual orientation is a pretty boring issue for me, its 2020, you don't like gay men fine, don't have sex with them.... Its not a major issue of our generation anymore, luckily thanks to the Supreme Court, there are not many more battles to fight (in the USA anyway, in other countries its a totally different ballgame, especially in the Middle East and Africa and parts of Eastern Europe..... ).
But, I will always repel against the accusation that all (or even most) gay men are predators.... I fine it absurd that people still even have this view.....

Quote: AZDuffman

Finally, you are showing the defense of gays when attacked perfectly. You are defending them to the end.

You gotta love this guy. The discussion was initially about gay men on Ellen preying on males, yet this dude is trying to twist everything around and turn it into a debate on whether or not ALL gay men are predators. This is one of the reasons why I blocked him. 🙄 Sheesh........

Quote: Gandler

This is just an insane point. Do you really think the 100K plus (that is a lowball estimate) of underage females who are trafficked are doing it willingly or for the money. And, even if they were, does that make it right? ……..

Not talking about trafficking. Talking about the girls who hook up with guys from their teachers to the father of the kids they babysit. Talking about teen girls who willingly go into prostitution. More than a few women find prostitution to be easy money and take up the trade.

Quote:

No, I am showing that heterosexual men also have sex with underage people. Look at the comparisons of trafficked males vs females, its not quite 99-1, but spoiler alert, far more females are trafficked (which by your logic means far more heterosexual men are predators).

Again, apples and bowling balls. I am asking you to show me where men who lead a girl scout troop abuse the girls the same as gays abused BSA members and church members. You bring up trafficking because you cannot do it!

Quote:

Sexual orientation is a pretty boring issue for me, its 2020, you don't like gay men fine, don't have sex with them.... Its not a major issue of our generation anymore, luckily thanks to the Supreme Court, there are not many more battles to fight (in the USA anyway, in other countries its a totally different ballgame, especially in the Middle East and Africa and parts of Eastern Europe..... ).
But, I will always repel against the accusation that all (or even most) gay men are predators.... I fine it absurd that people still even have this view.....

If it were so boring to you then you would not be spending so much time on it.

Instead of saying "all are not predators," which is a childish way to defend a position, you could just take the rational position that gay males around teen boys has destroyed countless lives and should be limited in the same way as straight males around teen females should be? Because it has been a problem. It will remain a problem.

Quote: AZDuffman

Not talking about trafficking. Talking about the girls who hook up with guys from their teachers to the father of the kids they babysit. Talking about teen girls who willingly go into prostitution. More than a few women find prostitution to be easy money and take up the trade.

You can't willingly go into prostitution or sleep with adults as a minor (at least not in America). Very different from adult prostitutes.

Quote: AZDuffman

Again, apples and bowling balls. I am asking you to show me where men who lead a girl scout troop abuse the girls the same as gays abused BSA members and church members. You bring up trafficking because you cannot do it!

Not a bad comparison at all. You were implying that there was no widespread abuse of female minors, when there clearly is. Trafficking is one major example. There are also endless examples of teenage girls being abused by teachers, coaches, etc.....

Quote: AZDuffman

If these guys "were not interested in the gender" of their victims, how come we have not heard stories of widespread abuse of female teens by men in these kinds of positions?

Whenever there is widespread abuse of female teens (there is) its always either a "bad comparison" or its probably consensual, not a good argument.....

Quote: AZDuffman

If it were so boring to you then you would not be spending so much time on it.

Instead of saying "all are not predators," which is a childish way to defend a position, you could just take the rational position that gay males around teen boys has destroyed countless lives and should be limited in the same way as straight males around teen females should be? Because it has been a problem. It will remain a problem.

It has never been a problem. Your major citations for this "problem" are both organization that (until extremely recently in the case of BSA) banned gay men. Once, the gay ban was lifted cases of abuse went down to virtually none.... Now, I am not saying correlation proves causation, but there is no logic to back up what you say.

Gay men banned from BSA since the 1960s= Decades of heavy abuse.
Gay ban lifted = virtually no sustained abuse claims in the last 5 years (Gay leaders were allowed to lead in 2015), gay kids were allowed to join in 2013.
I am sure you will attribute these numbers to something else. But, its just shows that a gay ban does not prevent abuse.... If anything the gay ban correlated with the years of most heavy abuse....

I am less of an expert on the Catholic Church or their polices, so I am not sure how the numbers are, or if gay men can currently join. I am also not religious so I don't care too much about their policies (except when they impact other countries like trying to ban condoms in AIDs ravaged countries in Africa.....)
In any case if priests are supposed to be nonsexual (which I believe is still the case), it should hardly matter what their sexual preference is.....

Of course the bigger issue with both organizations is that they covered abuse to preserve their image instead of reporting abusers to the authority..... And, in some cases went to great lengths to cover abusers by moving them around and hiding paperwork..... Its an issue with organizations caring more about their image than victims....



But, no straight men around teen girls, or gay men around teen boys is not an inherent problem, its only a problem if a predator takes advantage of the situation which happens sadly in both cases.... For example to go back to Scouting (and ignore teaching and coaching incidents, both of which have no restrictions on gender....) girls can now join Boy Scouts (where they would be under Men leaders) and men can lead Girl Scouts, so it has already been happening...
The idea that teen boys should only be around straight men, and teen girls should only be around straight females does not happen in the real world virtually anywhere....


But, yes sexual orientation is a generally boring issue, there are parts of the world where rights are still lacking, but speaking from a position of privledge (living in the U.S.), everything is now how it should be with the most recent Supreme Court battle (making sexual orientation a protected class for workers, and not too long ago making gay marriage legal). Of course there are many countries where this is sadly not the case.
Its only worth taking time when people try to lump gay men in with sex predators, which I will probably not change your mind, but at least I tried.

Quote: Gandler

You can't willingly go into prostitution or sleep with adults as a minor (at least not in America). Very different from adult prostitutes.

Sure you can.

Quote:

It has never been a problem. Your major citations for this "problem" are both organization that (until extremely recently in the case of BSA) banned gay men. Once, the gay ban was lifted cases of abuse went down to virtually none.... Now, I am not saying correlation proves causation, but there is no logic to back up what you say.

Whether there was a ban or not the gays abused the boys. And that was the reason for the ban, how the gays behaved.

Quote:

I am less of an expert on the Catholic Church or their polices, so I am not sure how the numbers are, or if gay men can currently join. I am also not religious so I don't care too much about their policies (except when they impact other countries like trying to ban condoms in AIDs ravaged countries in Africa.....)
In any case if priests are supposed to be nonsexual (which I believe is still the case), it should hardly matter what their sexual preference is.....

Catholic priests have to take a vow of chastity. So if gay males want to join as long as they keep the vow they may join. Clearly many broke the vow.

Quote:

But, no straight men around teen girls, or gay men around teen boys is not an inherent problem, its only a problem if a predator takes advantage of the situation which happens sadly in both cases.... For example to go back to Scouting (and ignore teaching and coaching incidents, both of which have no restrictions on gender....) girls can now join Boy Scouts (where they would be under Men leaders) and men can lead Girl Scouts, so it has already been happening...
The idea that teen boys should only be around straight men, and teen girls should only be around straight females does not happen in the real world virtually anywhere....

It clearly has been a problem. You just refuse to both see the problem and to understand about "appearance of impropriety." You seem to subscribe to some post-modern philosophy of life where gender is meaningless. BSA is going down the tubes. That they allowed girls to join is just the last nail in the coffin of a once great organization.

Quote:

Its only worth taking time when people try to lump gay men in with sex predators, which I will probably not change your mind, but at least I tried.

Your position that gay males cannot be sex predators is trying indeed.

Quote: AZDuffman

Again, apples and bowling balls. I am asking you to show me where men who lead a girl scout troop abuse the girls the same as gays abused BSA members and church members. You bring up trafficking because you cannot do it!

lol

I swear, conservatives can never have an honest debate with libbies. You specifically brought up boy scouts vs. girl scouts, yet he feels the need to bring up.......................................human trafficking?!?!

That's like asking someone to compare Major League Baseball to the Japanese Baseball League, but then out of the blue someone brings up........................soccer!

It's like WTF man?!

Quote: AZDuffman

If it were so boring to you then you would not be spending so much time on it.

+1,000