Abortion

The question is, what's your stand on abortion.

As of now I favor free abortions (that is free of restrictions, not without paying for it) only in the first trimester, give or take (there's a lot of guesswork in when a pregnancy started). But I lean towards no restrictions at all for two trimesters. And in case of any danger to the health or life of the mother, I favor it without any restrictions at all.

Discuss.

I won't advice to keep it civil, but try not to get yourself suspended.

And I will preemptively answer one argument: if my mother had aborted me, you'd be talking to someone else rigth now.

Personally, for the typical case of an accidental pregnancy, I would draw the line at 8 weeks. In my opinion, a key consideration is when the unborn becomes self aware. Brain waves become detectable at six weeks. However, that has to be weighed against the fact that the mother may not even know she is pregnant by that point. I see the whole argument as pitting the value of human life against the value of freedom. At some point, I would say self awareness, whenever that is, the value of life exceeds that of freedom.

On a practical note, I think that if the goal is to reduce the number of abortions, it can be better acheived through sex education and easy access to contraception.

Quote: Wizard

On a practical note, I think that if the goal is to reduce the number of abortions, it can be better acheived through sex education and easy access to contraception.

Ah, good ol' common sense:-)

Quote: Wizard

I see the whole argument as pitting the value of human life against the value of freedom.

I'm uncomfortable with that argument. I don't think anyone's freedom is bought at the price of anyone's life. This is a rare case where I can see how those opposed to any abortion ahve a point. If a fetus equals a human being, then any abortion is murder. The error lies in the fact thata f etus is not a human being, but rather a potential human being. In time, and without interference, it will become a human being, but prior to a certain point it's justa clump of cells, no mroe human than an arm or a kidney.

Moreover, it s a clump of cells using a woman's body to live. That's what makes abortion moral: a woman has a right to use her body as she sees fit. So until the fetus can be considered actually human rather than merely potential, whcih is around the first 12 weeks, then the woman's choices rule without any question.

And of course any interference with her choices is a vioaltion of her rights, even demanding parental consent from a minor prior to an abortion. the parents are not the ones pregnant, after all.

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On a practical note, I think that if the goal is to reduce the number of abortions, it can be better acheived through sex education and easy access to contraception.

Oh, agreed. And I'd include the common failure rate of contraceptives among accidental pregnancies.

IN fact, while I consider abortion moral, using it as ameans of birth control is very irresponsible. That is, if people just chance it and then abort if the result is pregnancy, that's just wrong.

It is the potential for human life that makes it impossible to see anything other than a developing child in that clump of cells or fetus. It will always be more than just an organ or part of a human being. From conception the building blocks for life are complete, it is a unique individual never again to be repeated that only needs roughly nine months to be born.

The baby does indeed depend on the mother during the early stages of development but I don't see how that gives permission for the mother to kill the baby. There are many times when we are completely in charge of the care of someone so much so that without our time and energy and care they would die, but we never have the right to kill them.

I personally like Dr. Walter Block's theory on this topic. From Wikipedia:

"Dr. Walter Block, professor of economics at Loyola University New Orleans, provides an alternative to the standard choice between "pro-life" and "pro-choice" which he terms "evictionism". According to this moral theory, the act of abortion must be conceptually separated into the acts of (a) eviction of the fetus from the womb; and (b) killing the fetus. Building on the libertarian stand against trespass and murder, Block supports a right to the first act, but, except in certain circumstances, not the second act. He believes the woman may legally abort if (a) the fetus is not viable outside the womb; or (b) the woman has announced to the world her abandonment of the right to custody of the fetus, and no one else has "homesteaded" that right by offering to care for the fetus."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evictionist

Quote: FrGamble

It will always be more than just an organ or part of a human being.

Yes. Potentially. Actually:

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From conception the building blocks for life are complete, it is a unique individual never again to be repeated that only needs roughly nine months to be born.

Actually for some weeks it's just a clump of cells.

Quote: Nareed

I don't think anyone's freedom is bought at the price of anyone's life.

I disagree. Freedom is something that must be defeneded by force from time to time. I fully appreicate that many have died serving in the armed forces to protect the freedom I enjoy.

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If a fetus equals a human being, then any abortion is murder. The error lies in the fact thata f etus is not a human being, but rather a potential human being. In time, and without interference, it will become a human being, but prior to a certain point it's justa clump of cells, no mroe human than an arm or a kidney.

I think this topic deserves a more careful look at fetal development than that. A human life doesn't go from a clump of cells to viability overnight. Some view it as a sliding scale. As I said before, I view self awareness as the key indicator. We don't know exactly when that happens, but I would put it at 6 to 8 weeks.

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Moreover, it s a clump of cells using a woman's body to live. That's what makes abortion moral: a woman has a right to use her body as she sees fit. So until the fetus can be considered actually human rather than merely potential, whcih is around the first 12 weeks, then the woman's choices rule without any question.

At what point does one "become human"? Please back up your answer.

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And of course any interference with her choices is a vioaltion of her rights,

So, do you support abortion on demand late in the eighth month of pregnancy? Isn't saying "no" to her interfering with her rights?

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Oh, agreed. And I'd include the common failure rate of contraceptives among accidental pregnancies.

The probability of conception is lower with contraception than without it.

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IN fact, while I consider abortion moral, using it as ameans of birth control is very irresponsible. That is, if people just chance it and then abort if the result is pregnancy, that's just wrong.

Wrong but legal? How about infanticide?

Quote: Wizard

I disagree. Freedom is something that must be defeneded by force from time to time. I fully appreicate that many have died serving in the armed forces to protect the freedom I enjoy.

Yes. When someone tries to take our freedom, like all to commonly the Nazis and Communists did, or like the Islamists are doing now, you do need to fight. "you" here being a person or a country or an alliance. But that's defending liberty, which is another matter entirely.

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I think this topic deserves a more careful look at fetal development than that. A human life doesn't go from a clump of cells to viability overnight. Some view it as a sliding scale. As I said before, I view self awareness as the key indicator. We don't know exactly when that happens, but I would put it at 6 to 8 weeks.

Awareness and consciousness are hard to measure in some cases, like comma pacianets, brain-damaged patients, and also a developing fetus. Imposing a term now with the state fo our knowledge would be wrong. But I'd be willing to change my views as further evidence comes along.

And, pelase, don't bring up infanticide. Once a baby is born and her life can be sustained, even with aides like incubators, that's a living person with full rigths. Infanticide is never right.

Am I personally against the idea, or do I think they should be illegal? Two different questions.