Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

I will never again take seriously any of your criticism of God as revealed in the Old Testament.

That's ok. I don't think you ever did.

Regarding a murderer, I don't think there can be, or there should be, forgiveness without restitution. In the case of murder, no restitution is possible, therefore no forgiveness is possible, either.

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In this case the Church would see it the same way as a sexually active heterosexual couple who are not married.

That is so not true. There is no widespread activity by the church to deny marriage to sexually active heterosexual couples who've spent years not being married. Simply stating the notion sounds ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the opposition to same-sex marriage.

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It is not a sin to love another person or to be committed to them, no matter the gender - in fact it is holy. In this I agree with the official doctrine of the Church.

I really don't see how.

edited

Quote: Nareed

That's ok. I don't think you ever did.

Regarding a murderer, I don't think there can be, or there should be, forgiveness without restitution. In the case of murder, no restitution is possible, therefore no forgiveness is possible, either.

I always take your comments seriously. I guess I should have put a little smiley face after my OT comment as I meant only to say that your demand for justice for a sin reminds me of the righteousness of God in the Hebrew Scriptures. I suppose it wouldn't do well to remind you of the great quote, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth will leave the whole world blind and toothless."

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That is so not true. There is no widespread activity by the church to deny marriage to sexually active heterosexual couples who've spent years not being married. Simply stating the notion sounds ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the opposition to same-sex marriage.

You might not know about the Church's teaching regarding couples living together before marriage, probably because as you mentioned it is not often enforced or talked about enough. Some people see it as ridiculous. However, there are alarming statistics concerning those who live together before marriage and their divorce rate. Basically it becomes a trial run for marriage and the idea that once we are married I can't just move out like I could when we were just living together never seems to get translated. Also after many years of living together people just feel like it is just time to get married. This is not a valid reason to get married in the Church's eyes.

Quote: FrGamble

if you had revive either a monkey or a human who would you help?

Straw man arguments have no merit. Straw man:

'Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.'

You do this frequently. Straw man arguments work
well on unintelligent and uninformed people. It
confuses them, which is the intent.

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is a grain of sand equal to a human soul, why or why not?

Sand has no soul. Have you ever realized
that to continue living, all living things
have to eat something that's alive, or
was recently alive, or a live thing that has
been preserved? We have to consume
something that had the spark of life in
it, or we die. We are all connected.

Quote: FrGamble

I guess I should have put a little smiley face

Maybe I should have, too.

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after my OT comment as I meant only to say that your demand for justice for a sin reminds me of the righteousness of God in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Righteousness is one thing. Bloody-minded vengeance is quite another. I wouldn't say the murderer's family ought to be punished as well, nor would I require punishment son generations yet to be born.

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You might not know about the Church's teaching regarding couples living together before marriage,

I know not a single, solitary priest has as much as complained about the fact that heterosexual couples living together can obtain a civil marriage any time they want one.

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Also after many years of living together people just feel like it is just time to get married. This is not a valid reason to get married in the Church's eyes.

Apparently a sincere commitment to share two lives isn't a valid reason, if the couple is of the same sex.

Quote: FrGamble

This is not a valid reason to get married in the Church's eyes.

Priests don't have to put up with
living with a woman. That alone
is a major perk. Women are nuts,
to one degree or another.

Quote: Evenbob

Sand has no soul. Have you ever realized
that to continue living, all living things
have to eat something that's alive, or
was recently alive, or a live thing that has
been preserved? We have to consume
something that had the spark of life in
it, or we die. We are all connected.

Bob, I'm only asking these things to clarify your thought. So the universe treats all living things as equal but doesn't care for inanimate matter? What about trees, plants, or things like moss? They are alive but they do not consume anything that has the "spark of life" in it. Also for different times in my life I have been a vegetarian. I actually felt very good eating that way (maybe I should go back to it), anyway how do such diets consume the spark of life? Finally, how are we to reconcile the idea that all living souls are equal with the fact that we rightly kill and consume animals?

Quote: Nareed

Righteousness is one thing. Bloody-minded vengeance is quite another. I wouldn't say the murderer's family ought to be punished as well, nor would I require punishment son generations yet to be born.

I'm afraid you can't have your cake and eat it too. The strict righteousness you seek leads to the bloody-minded vengeance in people's hearts when they don't feel justice has been served. Often in our imperfect world the requirements of righteousness and justice are not met. The victim's family takes it out on the guilty one's family and upon their generations to come. Someone has to relieve this desire for righteousness before it sours into revenge. God fulfills all righteousness and takes all punishments on Himself so He can bring peace, forgiveness, and healing to those who seek bloody vengeance.

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I know not a single, solitary priest has as much as complained about the fact that heterosexual couples living together can obtain a civil marriage any time they want one.

I really don't care about the civil marriage part, it's not my concern, but you do know at least one priest who complains that heterosexual couples living together should not enter into a sacramental marriage without changing their living situation, the way they live together, and/or have real honest discussions about why they have chosen to live that way and why they really want to get married in the Church.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm afraid you can't have your cake and eat it too.

This after you believe in someone who is both man and god? Please.

A murderer cannot be forgiven, because his first victim cannot forgive him. It's as simple as that. Since the life he took cannot be made whole again (try it and see), he then must pay for that crime for the rest of his life. I wouldn't mind ending the murderer's life, either, except I oppose the death penalty on principle. The principle being juries, judges and lawyers make mistakes. So it is better to have any number of murderers kept alive for decades, rather than execute a single innocent person.

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I really don't care about the civil marriage part, it's not my concern,

The church seems to care a great deal about civil same-sex marriage.

Quote: FrGamble

What about trees, plants, or things like moss? They are alive but they do not consume anything that has the "spark of life" in it.

That's the first thing people say when they
hear this. Soil is very much alive, it contains
millions of living and formerly living things. Soil
has the spark of life all thru it, that's how it
nourishes plants and trees. You knew this,
you've probably never thought about it before.

http://arboretum.unl.edu/soil-its-alive