Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

I think you in another thread were just telling us how the shitheads get more shit and the good people receive good things in their lives.

If you treat people decently, most of the time
they will treat you the same way. If you act
like a jerk, you'll be treated like one. Has
nothing to do with god or religion, it's
just a fact of life. What you put out there
goes round and round, you create your
own reality.

Quote: FrGamble

Even with such a wall, as a thinking person I would have still come to believe in God and be saved.

The saving thing has always bugged me too.
If god created everything and knows everything,
what is he saving us from, exactly. He creates
the danger, and says we have an option to be
saved from it? This makes sense to you?

If a rich guy had an island, and he kidnapped
you and put you on it, and set all these traps
that could kill you, but gave you a way you
could be saved, you would think he was insane.

Yet nobody says that about god, who did the
exact same thing.

If a rich guy gave you an island and told you the rules of the island and you broke those rules deciding to do stuff your own way and low and behold found yourself now in all kinds of trouble, yet he did not give up on you but gives you a way out of the mess you caused - you would call the rich guy merciful and loving and yourself a fool. Yet nobody seems to be saying that about God.

Quote: FrGamble

If a rich guy gave you an island and told you the rules of the island and you broke those rules deciding to do stuff your own way and low and behold found yourself now in all kinds of trouble, yet he did not give up on you but gives you a way out of the mess you caused - you would call the rich guy merciful and loving and yourself a fool. Yet nobody seems to be saying that about God.

You changed the story. God didn't ask Adam and
Eve if they wanted the earth, in the fable he stuck
them there and gave them an impossible problem
that he knew they would fail. Because he knows
everything, this is sadistic at best. There's no possible
point to it when you know the outcome, except to
see people suffer. A good person (or god) does not
put people in harms way just to see if they will save
themselves. We put people like that in prison.

What is so impossible about the problem? Just use your freedom to love and do what is right and there need be no suffering. I think it was you yourself who said if you do wrong than you reap what you sow, what goes around comes around. So all of the sudden this is not the case and is not fair or sadistic? You should make up your mind about this - is it correct that when people choose to do evil then their lives become miserable or not?

Quote: FrGamble

What is so impossible about the problem?

It's just like Job in the OT. God and Satan
are hanging out one day (say what?) and
Satan talks god into testing Job's faith by
taking everything away from him, including
wife and kids.

It's Adam and Eve all over again. Who does
something like that?

Okay you do realize we are talking about two mythical writings, right? Secondly, they are actually exactly opposite in almost every way. Adam and Eve where given everything perfect and they sinned and lost it. Job did nothing wrong and had everything taken away from him. One is a story of sinfulness, the other a story of strength and faithfulness.

Quote: FrGamble

Okay you do realize we are talking about two mythical writings, right? .

They are supposed to send a message, that's
the point. They are the same in that god is
sadistical in each story. God says 'love me'
and then acts like the most unlovable entity
imaginable. He does this all thru the Bible.
I've heard scholars say it's amazing any kind
of religion was started from what's in the
Bible.

Let's see... God freely loves us into existence and makes us in His image and likeness with intelligence and freedom, we sin, are punished, and God restores us. Rinse and repeat throughout the whole OT and then finally the new and eternal covenant is established when God Himself bears the punishment for our sins so that all the world can return to the glorious state of life and eternal joy we were originally created for. Yeah, sounds pretty bad to me?!? What the freak are you talking about Bob?

That there is so much utter crap in the OT
it's a wonder they found enough to make
a religion out of it. Jesus being born
certainly didn't convince the Jews he
was the messiah, if he couldn't convince
the people he was sent to save, why
should we argue with them. They were
right, it's 2000 freaking years, to use your
expletive. His disciples thought he was
returning in their lifetimes. Jesus himself
said: " I tell you the truth, this generation
will certainly not pass away until all these
things have happened. "

You should read a book called The
Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention
of Christianity. A real eye opener.