Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Christianity makes us examine the outcomes of our actions before we make them, and determine if it is really good, right, and true.

So you think an atheist just blindly
thrashes around, never considering
what the consequences of his actions
might be? You don't think that, we've
discussed it too many times.

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you make me want to do anything I can to show the foolishness of thinking there is no God

You have to think that way because of the
game you've chosen to play. You're locked
into a certain mindset, but it's mostly not
your fault. You were indoctrinated at an early
age to be who you are. You could still choose
another path, but why would you. The one
you're on gives you comfort, and a certain amount
of power over others, and a sure future if you
obey the rules. There are worse things to do
with your life.

It doesn't matter in the end, we all die and come
back to do it all over again. Why worry about it.

Quote: Evenbob

You could still choose
another path, but why would you. The one
you're on gives you comfort, and a certain amount
of power over others, and a sure future if you
obey the rules. There are worse things to do
with your life.

All religions, Christianity/Catholicism included, are primarily, fundamentally, secular institutions at their core. A priest class figures out how to make a living without working. It all started when Og the Caveman figured out some aspect of the natural world--like how to tell when a storm was coming--and parlayed that knowledge into becoming the tribal shaman. People brought him food and hung on his every word, and he was able to mate with all of the unattached females (and some of the attached ones, too). What's not to like?

For followers, religion is equally compelling. Life is unfair. Death is final. Shit happens, often for no apparent reason. Relax, Og the Wise has it all figured out. Come sit by the fire and he'll tell you all about it. Bring food and your nubile daughter.

I don't know how hard FrG works, but
I've known half a dozen full time men
of the cloth, and none of them were
workaholics. Being in charge of a
church or a ministry gave them a huge
amount of free time during the week.

My bro in law has a Baptist church in
Canada. He admits he's lucky if he
'works' 15-20 hours a week. He has
lots of hobbies; bird watching, riding
his 1975 Honda all over the county,
taking pics of wildlife. I always get
the impression that men go into the
ministry knowing they'll have no 60
hour work weeks, quite the opposite
in fact.

Quote: Evenbob

So you think an atheist just blindly
thrashes around, never considering
what the consequences of his actions
might be? You don't think that, we've
discussed it too many times.

Of course I don't believe that and I never said it either. You yourself made it perfectly clear what an atheist think about in considering his or her actions: self-interest and what society demands of you. If this is really what is guiding your actions than this is a HUGE problem. Surely you also consider what is true, right, reasonable, and good. This is what a Christian thinks of BEFORE he or she thinks about themselves or societal demands.

The life of a Catholic priest is not an occupation but a vocation, it is a way of life that is 24/7, 365. I know very few priests who don't work regular 12 hour days. The other thing that makes what stinkingliberal and Evenbob say more than just offensive, but untrue, is that Christianity in particular follows the tenants of its founder, "I have come to serve, not to be served." Ministry in the Church is not about what I can get out of it, but rather how I can sacrificially serve to help others. That is precisely what I have dedicated my life to, what motivates me, and what I strive to do all the time.

Quote: FrGamble

what an atheist think about in considering his or her actions: self-interest and what society demands of you.

What else is there to consider. The universe
doesn't supply us with a set of morality
rules, we have to make them up. The old
farts in the OT made theirs up and then
pretended god sent them. It gave them
superstitious credibility.

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Surely you also consider what is true, right, reasonable, and good. .

That's what society determines for us. I
have to behave if I want live among others.
What do you think the 10 suggestions
that Moses had were. Rules he made up
to live together peacefully, god had nothing
to do with them.

Quote: Evenbob

That's what society determines for us. I
have to behave if I want live among others.

Do you not see how dangerous this is? What if society demands you accept slavery or rounding up immigrants into camps?

Look any sane person can recognize that there are moral objective laws that were not written by human beings. You keep bringing up the importance of living together peacefully or our self-interest - are these objective moral laws? What if someone decided that it was morally good to not live peacefully with others? How would you say they were wrong? There are certain things you and every human being knows is wrong, they are imposed upon us and not something we chose. The Bible lists 10 of them, but they have been known from the beginning. It wasn't the first time someone made laws reflecting objective moral laws such as protecting the innocent. If we can't change them and God had nothing to do with them, then where did they come from?

Quote: FrGamble

Do you not see how dangerous this is? What if society demands you accept slavery ?

You mean people didn't live that way
for thousands of years? How often did
Jesus speak out against slavery. Why
would he, it was the accepted practice
of his day, it would never occur to him
it was wrong, because in his society it
wasn't.

Quote:

What if someone decided that it was morally good to not live peacefully with others? How would you say they were wrong?

To them they aren't wrong. For several
hundred years in rural England, in the
so called Dark Ages, if you wandered
onto somebodies property as a traveler,
there's a good chance you would be
served for dinner. Cannibalism was
practiced widely in the areas outside
of the cities, and accepted as a part
of life. You were fair game if you weren't
known to them, or part of their clan.

We make up morality as we go along,
it's a fantasy that the universe is innately
moral in any way.

Quote: Evenbob

You mean people didn't live that way
for thousands of years? How often did
Jesus speak out against slavery. Why
would he, it was the accepted practice
of his day, it would never occur to him
it was wrong, because in his society it
wasn't.

Jesus' preaching about the equality of all people even if they were the hated Samaritans, lepers, slaves, or prostitutes is one of the reasons he so worried those in power. He spent His life speaking against accepted practices of His day. He spoke and ate with women he ignored the rules of the Sabbath. Just because society tells you to do something does not mean it is right or morally good, please, please, tell me you understand this.

Quote:

We make up morality as we go along,
it's a fantasy that the universe is innately
moral in any way.

So it would be morally correct to rape little girls if society decided it was okay? Doesn't something have to be true and right that doesn't depend on what the majority of people think? Couldn't it be that society or ourselves are wrong? What gives you the hubris to determine what is right or wrong? What gives society that power? The universe may not be innately moral, but humanity surely is. This is one of the many reasons we are so different than the rest of creation.

Quote:

What gives you the hubris to determine what is right or wrong?

The same hubris that blindly accepts
what's said in the long forgotten past
just because the passage of time has
grandfathered it it. Why would I think
they know what's better for me than
I do.

Quote:

This is one of the many reasons we are so different than the rest of creation.

There is no creation, only evolution. And
we have only recently evolved so our brains
are big enough that we have self understanding.
The last mutation of our species had no
such luxury, and I'm sure had the morals of
an animal.