Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

1) Those who have died are beyond hope or help.

Says the atheist.

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2) Apparently in the last 2000 years the most Jehovah has been capable of doing is to put images of his son on toast.

I did laugh out loud at this but then I thought you could be serious a little bit. If so it is a prime example of the huge blinders and earplugs you need in order to be an atheist.

Around 1700 years ago Jehovah's son was making deals with brutal Roman generals to crush other brutal Roman generals. Or so you and Constantine I would have us believe.

Can you point to any verifiable large scale miracle along those lines?

Quote: Nareed

Around 1700 years ago Jehovah's son was making deals with brutal Roman generals to crush other brutal Roman generals. Or so you and Constantine I would have us believe.

Can you point to any verifiable large scale miracle along those lines?

So now you have shifted to verifiable large scale miracles rather than pieces of toast, subtle. I'm glad you got off the line of Jesus and Christianity not doing anything for 2000 years that you first suggested, there is not enough room on this forum for that answer.

One place you can go to which is very close to you I think is Our Lady of Guadalupe. This miraculous image and appearance to Juan Diego led to the conversion of an entire people. I imagine there is no where you go where you don't see a miraculous image of Our Lady. What is also interesting is that this appearance occurred during the Protestant reformation. They say more people came into the Church those years through Our Lady of Guadalupe then left it due to Luther. You could also choose any of the other Marian miracle appearances around the world.

Quote: stinkingliberal

Except for the threats of eternal damnation and suffering in agony forever if you don't follow the rules, of course.

Would you rather someone not warm you that a cliff is approaching? It would seem much more evil to not say anything to someone who could very much hurt themselves because they are doing something against the rules.

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I would say that at LEAST 95% of the population dies "unshriven," as in, per Christian doctrine, guilty of a mortal sin and unconfessed. So hell is Los Angeles and heaven is Paducah. What, exactly, was the point of creating all those lost souls? If God is about love and forgiveness, why is any soul in hell at all?

You are a moderate atheist and a pessimist, how sad! Did the good nuns not also teach you that God is not limited to the Sacraments? I continue to not believe you went to a Catholic school; so incorrect are your understandings of simple Church teachings. Do you remember the conditions for mortal sin: grave matter, knowledge, and freedom? In our crazy world these last two conditions are not often in place due to misinformation and addictions to material things and pleasure.

God is love and forgiveness and hell is not for us. Why there are souls in hell is only because people willingly and knowingly chose separation from God who is the source of all love and life. How is that possible? It is hard to imagine but some people become so hardened, alone, bitter, scared, and so sure they are worthless that even God's grace and love imploring them at the last moments to accept forgiveness and freedom is rejected. Maybe now you can see why I think your estimates of Hell's population are very much exaggerated.

Quote: FrGamble

I hardly feel you have the standing or gumption to make the suffering of our broken world a bludgeon to attack God. God is the only source of hope for those who die too young from disease or in earthquakes. It is your illogical and despairing ideology of atheism that robs humanity of ultimate justice and happiness. Without God we are left without meaning and in despair. It is you who are left grasping at straws with no answers to the suffering we all experience and you offer nothing except to rub our noses in excrement and pretend it supports an athestic worldview, when in reality it makes your ideas and your argument stink to high heaven.

Sorry, I attempted to engage in a rational discussion with you, but all you can do is sneer at atheists and paint them as evil and morally bankrupt. I, in fact, consider my morality to be far superior to yours, in that it isn't supported by a medieval mythology. I'm a good person, even though I don't have to be. That's much more than being a good person because I am afraid that God will toss me in the incinerator if I'm not.

You totally ignored the question of how a loving God could condemn his "children" to an eternity of suffering if they misbehave. I suspect you did so because within Christian doctrine, there is no good answer. I personally wouldn't want anyone I love to suffer unimaginable torture for all eternity even if they DID screw up and offend me somehow. I guess that makes me better than God.

Without God, I find PLENTY of meaning in life. In fact, I find more meaning than believers do. All you want to do is disparage me because I don't share your belief in Christian mythology. You don't seem to have the intellectual honesty to admit that your religion is but one of thousands, all of which believe they have it completely correct and all other religions are wrong. I'm sorry, but faith, no matter how fervent, is no substitute for facts. That's not just how I feel--it's a primary aspect of reality.

Quote: FrGamble

So now you have shifted to verifiable large scale miracles rather than pieces of toast, subtle. I'm glad you got off the line of Jesus and Christianity not doing anything for 2000 years that you first suggested, there is not enough room on this forum for that answer.

It would be more accurate to say that no deity has ever done anything in the history of the Universe, because existence is a pre-requisite for the doing of something.

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What is also interesting is that this appearance occurred during the Protestant reformation. They say more people came into the Church those years through Our Lady of Guadalupe then left it due to Luther. You could also choose any of the other Marian miracle appearances around the world.

You know the Protestants at the time would say Satan was behind the whole marketing campaign, right?

Quote: Nareed

It would be more accurate to say that no deity has ever done anything in the history of the Universe,

Except create the Universe of course.

Quote: FrGamble

Except create the Universe of course.

If you want to go through the whole marry-go-round again, have at it and let us know how it went.

And pics, or it didn't happen!

Quote: stinkingliberal

Sorry, I attempted to engage in a rational discussion with you, but all you can do is sneer at atheists and paint them as evil and morally bankrupt.

That is not at all what I am doing. Don't take this personally, I am sure you are a moral and good person. I am only saying that atheism as an ideology or philosophy or a ground for morality is morally bankrupt. You haven't addressed the fact that the same atheism you profess can lead you to an beautiful vision of life and can lead someone else towards the greatest evils we have seen in the 20th century. In fact in my experience more atheists I have personally met have been not as good as you purport to be. They usually are not concerned with big questions of life and are more interested in getting whatever they think is best for themselves. The stats for the charitable giving of atheists is quite sad. Anyway in summary, you are a good person and an atheist, that is wonderful. However, I continue to say it is not because of your atheism. Everything you said about the improbability of life, etc. is all stuff I and many other Christians also believe plus we also know that this amazing gift of life is not a meaningless accident.

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I, in fact, consider my morality to be far superior to yours, in that it isn't supported by a medieval mythology.

No your morality is supported by nothing at all!!! Nothing that is except yourself and what you want to do. I consider your morality to be far inferior.

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I'm a good person, even though I don't have to be. That's much more than being a good person because I am afraid that God will toss me in the incinerator if I'm not.

Again I congratulate you and have no doubt about it. I can say the same exact thing. You do realize of course that some people do need to the encouragement and help of knowing the real consequences of their actions. The Scared Straight program might not be needed for you and I, but I imagine you recognize it could have value for someone else.

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You totally ignored the question of how a loving God could condemn his "children" to an eternity of suffering if they misbehave. I suspect you did so because within Christian doctrine, there is no good answer. I personally wouldn't want anyone I love to suffer unimaginable torture for all eternity even if they DID screw up and offend me somehow. I guess that makes me better than God.

If you don't want someone you love to suffer imagine what God feels. He has become one of us, died on the cross for us, and loves us unconditionally. He is always begging striving and doing anything He can to reach the hearts of everyone. He is always willing to forgive. God however won't go against our free will and He will not destroy justice or forgo truth. So it is not God condemning His children, it is God doing everything possible to love His children who still have the freedom to ignore Him or chose against Him - especially if they don't even believe he exists in the first place.

Also remember that your lack of free will argument doesn't hold water because foreknowledge of an event does in no way effect your personal decision to chose.

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Without God, I find PLENTY of meaning in life. In fact, I find more meaning than believers do.

This is subjective and sounds childish. I believe wholeheartedly that you find PLENTY of meaning in life and am very happy you do so.

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All you want to do is disparage me because I don't share your belief in Christian mythology. You don't seem to have the intellectual honesty to admit that your religion is but one of thousands, all of which believe they have it completely correct and all other religions are wrong. I'm sorry, but faith, no matter how fervent, is no substitute for facts. That's not just how I feel--it's a primary aspect of reality.

I do not want to disparage you because you don't share my Christians beliefs. I am very aware that there are about five major religions that 99% of the world believes in and I believe that there are seeds of truth in all of them. What I want to disparage is your belief that there is no God. That is just unintelligent and illogical and has no evidence or reason behind it. You should really abandon such an idea and embrace some religion or theistic philosophy. You would lose nothing of your meaning for life and instead would finally find a belief system that supports your good morality.

Quote: FrGamble

In fact in my experience more atheists I have personally met have been not as good as you purport to be. They usually are not concerned with big questions of life and are more interested in getting whatever they think is best for themselves. The stats for the charitable giving of atheists is quite sad.

It would seem your complaint is that atheists are no different de facto from Christians.