Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

The fact that we will live forever, something be actually agrees with, doesn't mean that we did not have a beginning, which apparently he denies.

Here's a question for you:

When did 2+2 become 4?

Quote: stinkingliberal

The causation argument is fallacious and was old and tired when Thomas Aquinas used it. Logical regression is a flawed form of analysis. The universe does have a cause, but that cause is probably simply part of its physical nature and is actually explained by the big bang theory. Note that it is a theory, which makes it more intellectually honest than Christianity's unjustified absolute certainty.

Please explain how logical regression is flawed. Remember it is not Christianity's certainty we are talking about here but logic's. If you deny it is certain that everything that began to exist has a cause then you are not going against Christianity or the other Abrahamic religions, but you are going against logic.

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I have a simple metric for when I should or should not believe something. I call it my Law of Inverse Beliefs. It states that the better it makes me feel to believe something, the more skeptical I should be of that belief.

This seems to be an example of a flawed form of analysis and also masochistic. Why do you think this law should be inversely proportional to how much better something makes you feel? Isn't the opposite true in every occasion? The more someone makes you feel better around them the more truly you care about that person and value them. The more you feel better eating healthy or exercising the more truly it is a benefit to your health. The more you serve and help others the more you realize it is true that giving of ourselves is the key to feeling fulfilled in this life (and the next). It would seem to me that a Law of Beliefs would make someone less skeptical about something that made them feel better.

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But you know what? That realization, once I had the courage to make it, has made me feel much better about life.

Did this then according to your own Law of Inverse Beliefs through you into doubt and skepticism about your unprovable atheism?

Quote: Nareed

Here's a question for you:

When did 2+2 become 4?

Interesting question, I would say always and forever 2+2=4.

Quote: FrGamble

Interesting question, I would say always and forever 2+2=4.

According to your philosophy, that cannot possibly be so. Math would have an existence independent of the creator's, thus making the creator obedient to the dictates of math.

Shall we discuss the origin of the rules of logic next?

Quote: Nareed

According to your philosophy, that cannot possibly be so. Math would have an existence independent of the creator's, thus making the creator obedient to the dictates of math.

In my philosophy God is truth or as Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Anything that is true, such as math, is part of God. It doesn't have an existence independent of God but rather all truth is and comes from the reality of God. If this was not so how could anything, even math, be universally true.

Do you think it is possible that somewhere in our universe 2+2 does not equal 4? Do you think it is possible that somewhere genocide is a moral good?

Quote: Nareed

According to your philosophy, that cannot possibly be so. Math would have an existence independent of the creator's, thus making the creator obedient to the dictates of math.

Shall we discuss the origin of the rules of logic next?

Math is an epiphenomenon that is a consequence of creation. It's not an invention.

Quote: FrGamble

Anything that is true, such as math, is part of God. It doesn't have an existence independent of God but rather all truth is and comes from the reality of God.

So the creator made 2+2=4 rather than 5 why?

If 2+2=5 naturally, then it's as true as if 2+2=4 naturally.

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Do you think it is possible that somewhere genocide is a moral good?

No, I'm an atheist. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, genocide by drowning seems ethical.

Quote: Nareed

So the creator made 2+2=4 rather than 5 why?

If 2+2=5 naturally, then it's as true as if 2+2=4 naturally.

See Pew's insightful post above.

Also remember that while math is the result of creation its expression in human terms could be expressed in many ways.

Quote: Nareed

No, I'm an atheist. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, genocide by drowning seems ethical.

Genocide is not justice. When we do things, think global warming, that threaten our existence this cannot be considered genocide. Sin for example is our choice to do the wrong and bear the punishment for the guilty and innocent.

I also still notice that you, thank God, maintain that genocide properly understood is a grave evil. As an atheist what grounds this conviction. What if you were Stalin and thought that the extermination of groups of people was beneficial to yourself or the state, what besides the inate goodness of yourself and your conscience would stop you?

Quote: FrGamble

I also still notice that you, thank God, maintain that genocide properly understood is a grave evil. As an atheist what grounds this conviction. What if you were Stalin and thought that the extermination of groups of people was beneficial to yourself or the state, what besides the inate goodness of yourself and your conscience would stop you?

I'll ignore the rather odious implied comparison of atheists to Stalin (who wasn't actually an atheist at all BTW) and answer the question with a seriousness that it probably doesn't deserve. What would/should stop a person from committing a horrible act? Indeed, it should be his conscience/moral code, not God waving a stick. Conversely, if someone wants to commit such an act but refrains from it because of fear of divine punishment, isn't that morally inferior to someone whose conscience prevents him from contemplating that act in the first place, even with no threat of punishment?

We can be good without God. I consider myself a moral person and don't commit criminal acts not because I fear punishment (by the cops or by God), but because I think those acts are wrong. BTW, I break three of four of the Ten Commandments on a routine basis because I don't think it's wrong to covet my neighbor's wife's ass, or however that goes, and I take God's damn name in vain routinely.

Quote: pew

Math is an epiphenomenon that is a consequence of creation. It's not an invention.

That's a meaningless concept until you define "creation," which in turn depends on whether you identify a creator, or at least a causal force, to explain the universe's formation. Science posits just such a force; religion posits an old bearded guy.

It would be more accurate to say that mathematics is a FEATURE of this universe that we live in, and that in other universes, mathematics might not apply at all.