Original Sin?

March 17th, 2014 at 3:12:54 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
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Quote: Nareed
Ye sit is. but the argument is usually that the universe is so complex it had to be created. IF so, then the creator is even more complex, so it had to be created, too, by something more complex, which had to be created, etc.

It is a fallacy, but not my fallacy.


This is your fallacy just warmed over a bit. Eventually the infinite regress has to stop and if you want to now use the word complex then everything finds a beginning at a being or force so complex as to have its existence not dependent on anything that has come before it. An non-contingent being does not need to be created but all created things ultimately depend on this entity who by definition does not have a creator, but is the Creator. This is just logical.



Quote: Nareed
The universe need not be logical or reasonable, it just needs to be consistent.


A long time ago you said of something I wrote that if you saw it written down on a wall you would not only destroy that wall you would grind it into dust so that nothing of it would ever remain. I think that about your quote above.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
March 17th, 2014 at 4:01:14 PM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
Posts: 241
Quote: FrGamble
Infinite matter that has no beginning is not logical or reasonable.
Perhaps, but I can sooner accept infinite matter than an infinitely powerful invisible man who punishes talkative serpents. When scientists come up with a testable hypothesis about either infinite mass or infinite invisible man or any other creation story, then I'll get interested. Until then, it's all speculation.
March 17th, 2014 at 4:52:18 PM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
Quote: FrGamble
Come on, just because matter needs a creator does not mean the creator does. Just because all we have experience of are contingent beings like ourselves and contingent stuff, like everything around us, does not mean that there is not a being beyond our experience that holds existence in itself and is not contingent upon anything or anyone else, this is what we call God, aka the uncaused cause, the unmoved mover, etc.

This is important because what you describe above leads to an infinite regress, which I think is a logical fallacy. If nothing ever began than how did what obviously exists get here? This would lead to something that is not only beyond our experience, but beyond our comprehension. We can at least understand and reasonably comprehend a being such as God. Infinite matter that has no beginning is not logical or reasonable.


The start of the universe does not have to be comprehensible. Nothing suggests that we have to be able to understand it, easily or otherwise. There are those who claim they DO understand the big bang theory in quite good detail, but they've spent years looking at these problems. Certainly there is enough to suggest from I've read of the physics at the sub atomic level and the early universe that it just doesn't make 'common sense'.

Couldn't find the Feynman quote I was looking for, but this works well Enough:

Quote:
God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand. Now, when you finally discover how something works, you get some laws which you’re taking away from God; you don’t need him anymore. But you need him for the other mysteries. So therefore you leave him to create the universe because we haven’t figured that out yet; you need him for understanding those things which you don’t believe the laws will explain, such as consciousness, or why you only live to a certain length of time — life and death — stuff like that. God is always associated with those things that you do not understand.
It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die.... it's called Life
March 17th, 2014 at 5:11:22 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18631
Heard the old quote, "Forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest!"

Original Sin!

That is all.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
March 17th, 2014 at 5:35:03 PM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
Quote: FrGamble
This is your fallacy just warmed over a bit. Eventually the infinite regress has to stop and if you want to now use the word complex then everything finds a beginning at a being or force so complex as to have its existence not dependent on anything that has come before it. An non-contingent being does not need to be created but all created things ultimately depend on this entity who by definition does not have a creator, but is the Creator. This is just logical.


That is highly illogical ( to quote Mr. Spock )
How come everything needs a Creator but the Creator itself? Father - I respected this thread and debate until now.
I will ask the age old atheist question posed to believers: Can God create a rock so heavy even God cannot lift it?
March 17th, 2014 at 5:49:27 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: FrGamble
An non-contingent being does not need to be created but all created things ultimately depend on this entity who by definition does not have a creator, but is the Creator. This is just logical.


No, this is just an assertion.

If we go by evidence, then there is zero evidence of a creator, and lots of evidence to the effect the Universe just happened.

Quote:
A long time ago you said of something I wrote that if you saw it written down on a wall you would not only destroy that wall you would grind it into dust so that nothing of it would ever remain. I think that about your quote above.


Good, now we're even.

But if your God does exist, what is logical or reasonable about Quantum mechanics?
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
March 17th, 2014 at 8:10:47 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Nareed
No, this is just an assertion.

If we go by evidence, then there is zero evidence of a creator, and lots of evidence to the effect the Universe just happened.


Evidence of a creator is creation, look around it's everywhere and it had to come from somewhere. We even understand the concept of creation, it makes sense to us and we see it all the time - you create some amazing food dishes I've heard.
There is no evidence I know of to the effect that the Universe just happened. We don't understand the idea or even the concept or possibility of something just happening without cause.

This is why I disagree with the idea the we create God when we don't understand something. We understand very well the notion of and necessity for a creator and this is who many people say is God. We don't understand the idea of infinite regress or infinite matter or the Universe just happening and yet we don't call this phenomenon god. If God is a synonym for what we don't understand than atheists should be attributing lots of their ideas to a strange god.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
March 17th, 2014 at 8:15:56 PM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
Posts: 241
Quote: FrGamble
If God is a synonym for what we don't understand than atheists should be attributing lots of their ideas to a strange god.
Or perhaps atheists don't require gods to explain the as yet unexplained.
March 17th, 2014 at 8:24:29 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Dear Ace, you and others have asked the question about the Creator needing a Creator at least three times in this thread alone and I've tried to explain, probably not very well, that for anything to exist without falling into a nonsensical infinite regress then there has to be a non-contingent being whose essence contains its own existence and does not depend on another to be its creator, but is rather the uncaused cause of all things. Again I think this is a necessary and logical fact for anything to exist at all. Eventually the childlike questions of who made that, who made this, what caused that, and so on and so on need to stop at an ultimate beginning - A being or force that needs no creator and has no beginning, who holds existence in him/her/itself and who is truly the creator of all things.

Another question that has been asked a million times is the classic; can God lift a rock so heavy that even God cannot lift it? or Can God make a square triangle or a round rectangle or a married bachelor? I think they all have the same answer - God is real and only deals with reality, these impossible things don't make sense and are not real, they are fantasy like the idea of the universe just popping into existence without a creator or cause.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
March 17th, 2014 at 8:33:57 PM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 83
Posts: 2019
Quote: FrGamble
Dear Ace, you and others have asked the question about the Creator needing a Creator at least three times in this thread alone and I've tried to explain, probably not very well, that for anything to exist without falling into a nonsensical infinite regress then there has to be a non-contingent being whose essence contains its own existence and does not depend on another to be its creator, but is rather the uncaused cause of all things. Again I think this is a necessary and logical fact for anything to exist at all. Eventually the childlike questions of who made that, who made this, what caused that, and so on and so on need to stop at an ultimate beginning - A being or force that needs no creator and has no beginning, who holds existence in him/her/itself and who is truly the creator of all things.

Another question that has been asked a million times is the classic; can God lift a rock so heavy that even God cannot lift it? or Can God make a square triangle or a round rectangle or a married bachelor? I think they all have the same answer - God is real and only deals with reality, these impossible things don't make sense and are not real, they are fantasy like the idea of the universe just popping into existence without a creator or cause.


FrG - cannot the uncaused cause be the Big Bang...?

If God deals is truly all powerful, then why is God subject to the laws of reality a/k/a science...?