Original Sin?

Quote: s2dbaker

Atheists don't require a universe void of gods. As Bill Nye the Science Guy said, and I'm paraphrasing poorly, if you offer a testable proof of your theory of gods then atheists are more than happy to believe.

So far, you have offered us talking serpents, clearly an experiment with negative confirmation when repeated.

We all owe s2dbaker a word of thanks for showing us a way to get back on track to the original question of this thread. There seems to be a couple of other threads developing such as "Did the Universe have a beginning?" and "The role of science and religion: are they enemies or on the same team?" and "There are really no atheists only agnostics"

So what can I offer as testable proof to at least the theory of Original Sin?

If you weren't so hell bent on ridiculing the Biblical story by taking it so literally I think you would see its deeper meaning and the truth it is trying to convey. I don't know you but I wonder if I could do an experiment? Just using the theological teaching on original sin could I try to describe you and see if I even come close:

You are a human being who strives to do what is good and right but are sometimes frustrated that despite your best efforts you fall short of even the goals you yourself set before you. Yet you don't give up despite repeated failures in your attempt to be a better person as if something inside of you calls you forth to reach an unknown and untapped potential. Oh and you like Studebaker cars, but who doesn't?

Quote: FrGamble

It would not just be difficult but impossible to prove, because what you are implying truly makes no sense, no offense.

None taken.

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You can't keep getting smaller just like you can't keep going back in time, eventually there is an ultimate beginning, a first cause, an unmoved mover.

Maybe. Maybe not. Scale is a funny thing. Consider how big the world is, yet compared to the Sun it's tinier than a fly is to you. There does seem to be a limit on how small things can get (the Planc scale? I forget), but knowing that si proof that you can't get progressively smaller and smaller without limit. mathematically there is no smallest possible number, nor any largest possible number either)

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I don't know why this is so difficult to see when you seem to have no problem imagining your kitchen just popped into being on its own?!?

I can see kitchens being made, how and by whom. You consider how much trouble some Pacific islanders had in believeing the cargo, and the planes bringing it, was actually made by people. They founded a religion based on it. The Cargo Cult.

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What seems to be tripping up many of you is that you think this is some kind of proof for a Christian concept of God and you have such an aversion and mental block to such things that you won't even conceive of it for a second.

I can conceive it, that's not the point. The point would seem to be you cannot conceive an alternative.

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Take away the personification aspect of this higher power and I think you will see that since obviously material things cannot be eternal, because we know they were created by something else, then eventually there must be a immaterial force that is truly eternal that created all things out of nothing. I think sd2baker and someone else are now trying to call this the Big Bang, fine call it that, anything to get you to see that the idea of something that does not need to be created not only makes sense it is required if anything at all is to exist.

The problem with the Big bang is that we don't know what happened in the first moments, nor what happened before the first moments. One idea is that time itself came into being at the Big Bang, therefore speaking of "before" the Big Bang is meaningless. Not so long ago the Big bang was seen as perhaps part of a cycle in an oscillating universe.

The point is we have a long way to go in 1) finding out a great deal about the universe and 2) understanding what we do find out. Just in recent years we've found out just how much we dan't know. We don't know what most of the universe is amde of, for example. We call these things "dark matter" and "dark energy," but that's just convenient nomenclature. Fact is, we don't know if "dark matter" is one kind of thing or several, nor what "dark energy" is at all. A property of space time? A fundamental force? A kind of energy?

Given all this, we cannot say for certain the universe started with the Big Bang, nor even how long it has existed, end even less whether it was created or has always been there. Your God, after all, would be eternal as well.

Quote: FrGamble

Then why do atheists often use the 'as yet unexplained' to explain and require that there is no God?

Because atheists get to celebrate when actual scientific discoveries about the universe are made (none of us will be alive when everything is finally found out, but, it will be found out)

Today's news: Gravity waves found from the BIG BANG

Quote: FrGamble

You are a human being who strives to do what is good and right but are sometimes frustrated that despite your best efforts you fall short of even the goals you yourself set before you. Yet you don't give up despite repeated failures in your attempt to be a better person as if something inside of you calls you forth to reach an unknown and untapped potential.

You're describing, in a non-specific way, I'd say about 1/3 of all the people who have ever lived. If the attitude you describe covers ocassional actions, the figure rises significantly.

But I see no connection to any sin, original or derivative ;)

Quote: FrGamble

You are a human being who strives to do what is good and right but are sometimes frustrated that despite your best efforts you fall short of even the goals you yourself set before you. Yet you don't give up despite repeated failures in your attempt to be a better person as if something inside of you calls you forth to reach an unknown and untapped potential. Oh and you like Studebaker cars, but who doesn't?

I'm not certain what an obtuse observation like that is supposed to prove.

I guess I'm trying to ask how can we explain the fact that we as human beings have never seen or come close to perfection and yet we strive for it in so many ways, always falling and always getting back up. Somewhere deep inside of us there seems to be an echo of something greater (like the echo of the Big Bang apparently recently discovered) so that we never settle for just good enough or when we are honest with ourselves we want more. Maybe this is why we have evolved the way we have, there seems to be this yearning in us for something more. We want to figure out the universe, we want to heroically sacrifice for others, we want to love and be loved unconditionally. All the while we know that something inside us - our limited brains, our stubborn fears, our selfishness - holds us back, but we don't stop striving. We have this image of perfection ingrained in us somehow that over thousands of years of failures and proof that we cannot obtain it, still remains. How do we explain this outside of Original Sin?

Could it be that we were made to be perfect but thanks to our weakened state we inherited as human beings we cannot reach that elusive universal goal without help? As Pascal says in that quote (greatly paraphrasing here), "it doesn't seem to make sense except it makes so much sense", how can we understand the human person without the concept of original sin? Is the human condition proof of original sin?

Quote: FrGamble

I guess I'm trying to ask how can we explain the fact that we as human beings have never seen or come close to perfection and yet we strive for it in so many ways, always falling and always getting back up. Somewhere deep inside of us there seems to be an echo of something greater (like the echo of the Big Bang apparently recently discovered) so that we never settle for just good enough or when we are honest with ourselves we want more. Maybe this is why we have evolved the way we have, there seems to be this yearning in us for something more. We want to figure out the universe, we want to heroically sacrifice for others, we want to love and be loved unconditionally. All the while we know that something inside us - our limited brains, our stubborn fears, our selfishness - holds us back, but we don't stop striving. We have this image of perfection ingrained in us somehow that over thousands of years of failures and proof that we cannot obtain it, still remains. How do we explain this outside of Original Sin?

Could it be that we were made to be perfect but thanks to our weakened state we inherited as human beings we cannot reach that elusive universal goal without help? As Pascal says in that quote (greatly paraphrasing here), "it doesn't seem to make sense except it makes so much sense", how can we understand the human person without the concept of original sin? Is the human condition proof of original sin?

Do we not experience moments of perfection in life...? For each of us, perfection holds a different meaning so absolute perfection, for each of us, consists of entirely different things...

Would you not consider tribes of people...who are still unashamed of their own nudity...unapproached by missionaries...as touched by original sin...? Would you not liken them to actually still living in the garden of eden...?

Quote: FrGamble

I guess I'm trying to ask how can we explain the fact that we as human beings have never seen or come close to perfection and yet we strive for it in so many ways, always falling and always getting back up.

Some people are like that. Most aren't.

Those who are, though, have like, oh, a million examples available. From the toddler who wants to get up and walk like the adults do, to the engineer who wants to develop something new like Edison, Tesla, Brunnell, etc, there are examples scattered all around. And not just examples, but advice, manuals, recipes, encouragement and more. For isntance, I should think most successful politicians have read Machiavelli and Julius Caesar (what is it about Romans??)

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Somewhere deep inside of us there seems to be an echo of something greater (like the echo of the Big Bang apparently recently discovered) so that we never settle for just good enough or when we are honest with ourselves we want more.

But we settle. All the time. I know I do. At some point you've done all you can, or all you care to, and it's good enough and you move on. And perhaps those who don't settle are the really great ones, for good or ill (and I'd say that is evenly split), like Jobs, Tesla, Musk, Newton, Einstein, Asimov, Michealangelo, to name a few.

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we want to heroically sacrifice for others,

Hell, no.

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we want to love and be loved unconditionally.

Oh, for the love of Jove, no! I don't want "unconditional" love. Love is not a blank check.

I want to be loved for something. For my personality, for my wit (such as it is), for my talents, for my accomplishments. Even dogs don't love uncondtitionally (dogs being the usual example). Being animals they're not as picky as people, but anyone who's owned a dog will know they will love best those who treat them better. Those who play with them, or take them for walks, or give them treats, and so on.

I still don't see any relationship between all that and any kind of sin. I can see why you couch it such terms, but "sin" in this context makes as much sense to me as, oh, "pepper."

As you know "sin" in Hebrew means "missing the mark". That is how it enters into this discussion. We miss the mark and yes we do often settle for mediocrity or the status quo, but it never really leaves a good taste in our mouths. We are left frustrated that none of us can actually reach the bar we have instinctively set for ourselves. Again this is the maddening concept of original sin.

What I mean by unconditional is not a one sided abuse situation, where one person takes advantage of another. What we all want is to be loved for our gifts but also loved through our imperfections, that is what I mean when I talk about unconditional love. We want a love that celebrates our wonderful talents and forgives our mistakes - a love that can't be lost, a love that will always be there for us.

Quote: aceofspades

Do we not experience moments of perfection in life...? For each of us, perfection holds a different meaning so absolute perfection, for each of us, consists of entirely different things...

Would you not consider tribes of people...who are still unashamed of their own nudity...unapproached by missionaries...as touched by original sin...? Would you not liken them to actually still living in the garden of eden...?

Yes we do experience fleeting moments of what seems very close to perfection, they are the best of times and wonderful moments. I do think this elusive perfection is more universal than we think. It surely has to do with accomplishment, understanding, and most importantly feeling love.

Like s2dbaker you may be taking this original sin thing too literally, it's not about a talking snake or about being unashamed in our nakedness. It is about wrestling with our weakness and wondering why I feel ashamed about my inability to be perfect or to even stop desiring to be perfect. Why do I keep trying to be a better version of myself? What is it inside of me that whispers, like a story long forgotten, that I was made for something more?