Israel under Siege

Quote: missedhervee

I don't much care what the League of Nations decreed after WWI; my point is that the Arab people had lived there many generations and were made to get out so that a flood of Jewish immigrants could take their place, especially after the 1948 war. Prior to then 85% of Palestine was Arab.

Not anymore.

"Get out, your house is now my house!" said the Israeli at gun point.

And, who did the Ottoman Empire take it from?

Quote: kenarman

Can you explain to me the difference between that and what the US did to the Indians?

I can try.

We used treaties to steal their land, our army to kill them off, and boarding schools to destroy their culture.

Britain acquired the Holy Land from Turkey when the Turks chose to side with the Bosch in WWI and lost; attempts between wars were made to seek a permanent solution to competing claims without success.

After the holocaust the Jews were given free rein to make claim to the Holy Land with the blessing of the big powers; the Israeli army / fighters kicked the ass of the Arabs in the 1948 war and the rest is history.

I consider Gaza and the West Bank akin to reservations.

Quote: Gandler

And, who did the Ottoman Empire take it from?

Irrelevant, but since you asked ...

The Ottomans proceeded to conquer Palestine following their 1516 victory over the Mamluks at the Battle of Marj Dabiq. The Ottoman conquest of Palestine was relatively swift, with small battles fought against the Mamluks in the Jordan Valley and at Khan Yunis en route to the Mamluk capital in Egypt.

Quote: missedhervee

Irrelevant, but since you asked ...

The Ottomans proceeded to conquer Palestine following their 1516 victory over the Mamluks at the Battle of Marj Dabiq. The Ottoman conquest of Palestine was relatively swift, with small battles fought against the Mamluks in the Jordan Valley and at Khan Yunis en route to the Mamluk capital in Egypt.

Correct.

Why is Islamic Colonization just in your mind, but other forms of colonization are not? (Israel is not a colonizer, but that is how they are being portrayed by your side).

Quote: missedhervee

Irrelevant, but since you asked ...

The Ottomans proceeded to conquer Palestine following their 1516 victory over the Mamluks at the Battle of Marj Dabiq. The Ottoman conquest of Palestine was relatively swift, with small battles fought against the Mamluks in the Jordan Valley and at Khan Yunis en route to the Mamluk capital in Egypt.

You do realize that Jews have lived in Palestine continuously for over 2000 years?

Quote: kenarman

You do realize that Jews have lived in Palestine continuously for over 2000 years?

Yes, long before the term "Palestine" ever existed. "Palestinians" were not a real thing until the modern Israel was founded. Its mostly a ploy by the Islamic world to make Jewish people look like external invaders.

I don't even like the term "Arab" (In the Israel Context of "Jews vs Arabs") because its not a fair distinction, most of Israel looks (and is ethnically) "Arabic" (by Western Standards). Its another way to label them as an external group.

Really it comes down to the Islamic World does not like the idea of a Jewish State.

I never thought I would be saying this, but I just watched a 40 minute Ben Shapiro video.

It was a walkthrough of the history of Israel from the ancient to the modern and it was excellent (minus some random slurs against the UN and Biden, but I guess he has to throw something to his base). But, it was a surprisingly good video on the history leading to the current affairs. It shows how many people make Israel a villain, when they have been the hero since its inception. Its basically a history of the aggressor playing the victim every time they lose a war of aggression.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoVzKyD_IM&t=502s

Quote: Gandler

I never thought I would be saying this, but I just watched a 40 minute Ben Shapiro video.

It was a walkthrough of the history of Israel from the ancient to the modern and it was excellent (minus some random slurs against the UN and Biden, but I guess he has to throw something to his base). But, it was a surprisingly good video on the history leading to the current affairs. It shows how many people make Israel a villain, when they have been the hero since its inception. Its basically a history of the aggressor playing the victim every time they lose a war of aggression.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoVzKyD_IM&t=502s

I don’t really buy arguments for nation states to exist by right, so I consider it pretty much nonsense.

They exist by power. The rest is fancy window dressing.

Sometimes it’s through someone else’s power, but it’s still power.

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Gandler

I never thought I would be saying this, but I just watched a 40 minute Ben Shapiro video.

It was a walkthrough of the history of Israel from the ancient to the modern and it was excellent (minus some random slurs against the UN and Biden, but I guess he has to throw something to his base). But, it was a surprisingly good video on the history leading to the current affairs. It shows how many people make Israel a villain, when they have been the hero since its inception. Its basically a history of the aggressor playing the victim every time they lose a war of aggression.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoVzKyD_IM&t=502s

I don’t really buy arguments for nation states to exist by right, so I consider it pretty much nonsense.

They exist by power. The rest is fancy window dressing.

Sometimes it’s through someone else’s power, but it’s still power.

Well its not really an argument to exist by right, but just a historical reality. But, all States exist by power, that has always been reality. Some are more progressive than others.

Quote: Gandler

Quote: rxwine

Quote: Gandler

I never thought I would be saying this, but I just watched a 40 minute Ben Shapiro video.

It was a walkthrough of the history of Israel from the ancient to the modern and it was excellent (minus some random slurs against the UN and Biden, but I guess he has to throw something to his base). But, it was a surprisingly good video on the history leading to the current affairs. It shows how many people make Israel a villain, when they have been the hero since its inception. Its basically a history of the aggressor playing the victim every time they lose a war of aggression.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEoVzKyD_IM&t=502s

I don’t really buy arguments for nation states to exist by right, so I consider it pretty much nonsense.

They exist by power. The rest is fancy window dressing.

Sometimes it’s through someone else’s power, but it’s still power.

Well its not really an argument to exist by right, but just a historical reality. But, all States exist by power, that has always been reality. Some are more progressive than others.

It may be power that allows a physical state to exist but it is much more important that a state exists in the mind of it's citizens for long term viability. As an example look at Czechoslovakia. It existed as a physical state through the power of Russia. It's citizens though always thought of it as 2 countries and once they were able to peacefully separate they went back to what had always existed in their minds. Yugoslavia another artificial Russian creation also ended up as the divided countries that existed in peoples minds. Unfortunately it took a very brutal civil war for them get there. It takes a very exceptional country to get long term buy-in from a diverse population. Countries held by power alone have always waxed and waned through history.

Israel has always existed in the minds of the Jews. Countless thousands of them kept staying or returning to Israel over history to keep the dream alive. Many of the people who returned over the years knew their live would be very hard if they even survived. The strength of their belief in their country still brought them home.