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June 10th, 2020 at 7:42:07 PM permalink
Mission146
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Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: AZDuffman
I should have said "oneself" I suppose. Meaning people will gravitate to those they share background with. Did not mean "you" personally.


Oh, okay, that clears that up. I mean, yeah, I totally get gravitating towards people of shared backgrounds. However, a natural tendency eventually becomes tribalistic when it gets taken too far. Eventually you start looking at everything in a, "Them and Us," light. Tribalism is not a trait of the intellectually curious.

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Well, because there is no reason to do so and talk about racism is boring. The charge is meaningless it is used so often. And many of us are tired of ANTIFA and other leftist groups tearing down statues and demanding things they do not like to see be removed using "racist" as an excuse. Quite honestly, their behavior imitates the Taliban and their destruction of statues and other things they do not like. Yet they are given a pass. It is a dangerous road we are well down on.


There is a reason to do so because I'm trying to identify where his unexpected support comes from. You've as much as admitted that W. was a less divisive POTUS, you've just stated that's a trait that you didn't like about him, which is fine. At a minimum, Trump virtue signals to racists and panders to Bible-thumpers, but it is what it is. I suppose he did what he thought was needed to win, first the Republican Primary and the Election. And, he did win, fair and square and all according to the rules, even though the rules are stupid. The rules being stupid is not his fault, though.

I'm not an ANTIFA or member of any other leftist group, or any groups at all. I think tearing down statues is kind of dumb, those are expensive. I think a good argument can be made for getting rid of the Confederate Flag at Government buildings and I could see why businesses should also be encouraged, but not forced, to do so.

Like it or not, I don't even consider that flag as part of, "Our history," because they were not us. They were a separate country and were not part of The United States of America. They did have a history, and it was extremely brief, because we kicked their sorry asses all over the map. You get that? The Confederate States of America is not and was not The United States of America. They were traitors. The only thing the U.S.A. could have done better was to kill every last adult white male down there and not accept their surrender otherwise. They're darn lucky we accepted as peaceable a surrender as we did.

All of those states should also have their date of statehood reset to the date of the surrender rather than having them considered by the date that they were in this country the first time.


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Using it as an example to prove something acceptable or not you look at if it would be used in similar circumstances elsewhere.

I do not care if they are racist or not, I care that they show up to vote for him.


Well, you can be results-oriented if you wish. I prefer they not be racists and don't really care who anyone except for me votes for.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
June 10th, 2020 at 9:19:59 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18632
Quote: Mission146
Tribalism is not a trait of the intellectually curious.


Tribalism is probably as primitive as herds of animals. Before speech or human thought. And it's practically the idol of worship for Nationalist and Racists.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
June 11th, 2020 at 2:40:33 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: rxwine
Tribalism is probably as primitive as herds of animals. Before speech or human thought. And it's practically the idol of worship for Nationalist and Racists.


It does explain BLM.
The President is a fink.
June 11th, 2020 at 2:47:54 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Mission146

There is a reason to do so because I'm trying to identify where his unexpected support comes from. You've as much as admitted that W. was a less divisive POTUS, you've just stated that's a trait that you didn't like about him, which is fine. At a minimum, Trump virtue signals to racists and panders to Bible-thumpers, but it is what it is. I suppose he did what he thought was needed to win, first the Republican Primary and the Election. And, he did win, fair and square and all according to the rules, even though the rules are stupid. The rules being stupid is not his fault, though.


Trump virtue signals to racists? How exactly? Did he say "You are not white if you do not vote for me!" or similar? Examples, please.

Quote:
Like it or not, I don't even consider that flag as part of, "Our history," because they were not us. They were a separate country and were not part of The United States of America. They did have a history, and it was extremely brief, because we kicked their sorry asses all over the map. You get that? The Confederate States of America is not and was not The United States of America. They were traitors. The only thing the U.S.A. could have done better was to kill every last adult white male down there and not accept their surrender otherwise. They're darn lucky we accepted as peaceable a surrender as we did.


So, then, should Vietnam have killed all our POW's for "what they did" based on your logic? Or the Brits in 1770s. Asking for a friend.

Should the Brits be our enemy because we were traitors?
The President is a fink.
June 11th, 2020 at 4:48:50 AM permalink
Mission146
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Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: AZDuffman
Trump virtue signals to racists? How exactly? Did he say "You are not white if you do not vote for me!" or similar? Examples, please.


You would just find some excuse for any example I provide anyway. It would be a complete waste of my time. I guess the quick and easy example is saying that the white nationalist counter protest had, "Some very good people," while he condemns anyone in the current set of protests as looters and rioters, and then decides that ANTIFA is some sort of centralized organization (it isn't) so he can basically put anyone in that box who he likes.

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So, then, should Vietnam have killed all our POW's for "what they did" based on your logic? Or the Brits in 1770s. Asking for a friend.

Should the Brits be our enemy because we were traitors?


I know very little about Vietnam, although, I can say that we definitely weren't traitors to Vietnam because we aren't Vietnamese.

As far as the Brits go, a key difference is that they lost that war and we won. Winning a war is something that the Confederate States of America, as a country, is wholly unfamiliar with and does not apply. The United States became a sovereign country; the Confederate States ultimately did not...well, they did, but they didn't remain that way very long. You'll also recall the impressment (among other things) that led to the War of 1812, so it doesn't seem as though the British instantly forgave us, despite losing.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
June 11th, 2020 at 5:34:03 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Mission146
You would just find some excuse for any example I provide anyway. It would be a complete waste of my time. I guess the quick and easy example is saying that the white nationalist counter protest had, "Some very good people," while he condemns anyone in the current set of protests as looters and rioters, and then decides that ANTIFA is some sort of centralized organization (it isn't) so he can basically put anyone in that box who he likes.


Him saying that is no different than Obama racing to say "Not all muslims are terrorists" after a muslim shooting. Yet one is OK in this world and one is somehow bad? ANTIFA *IS* an organization. That there is no "central" authority does not matter. The KKK is not a centralized organization since about 1970.

The real difference seems to be you are not allowed to defend white people and not allowed to condemn black people, no?



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I know very little about Vietnam, although, I can say that we definitely weren't traitors to Vietnam because we aren't Vietnamese.


But we lost nonetheless. Get on Netflix and watch "Vietnam" fast, it goes away next week.

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As far as the Brits go, a key difference is that they lost that war and we won. Winning a war is something that the Confederate States of America, as a country, is wholly unfamiliar with and does not apply. The United States became a sovereign country; the Confederate States ultimately did not...well, they did, but they didn't remain that way very long. You'll also recall the impressment (among other things) that led to the War of 1812, so it doesn't seem as though the British instantly forgave us, despite losing.


So you are saying the winner gets to write history? CSA is a part of history whether you like it or not. The Confederate Flag is not even the flag of that country, it is a battle flag. It has come to represent the south as an area. It was not a big deal until snowflakes made it a big deal.
The President is a fink.
June 11th, 2020 at 6:55:55 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: AZDuffman
Him saying that is no different than Obama racing to say "Not all muslims are terrorists" after a muslim shooting. Yet one is OK in this world and one is somehow bad? ANTIFA *IS* an organization. That there is no "central" authority does not matter. The KKK is not a centralized organization since about 1970.

The real difference seems to be you are not allowed to defend white people and not allowed to condemn black people, no?


What do you mean not defend white people? I'll defend whoever I want to defend, regardless of color. If you're criticizing the entire organization of BLM for instance, and BLM has more than zero white folks (which it does) am I not defending white people by defending BLM? The fact is that Trump is not a, 'Both sides,' guy, he's not going to acknowledge the legitimacy of the peaceful protesters (in this case) with the same strenuousness that he condemns the rioters and looters. He also tries to shut down the media at every turn, which is totally Unconstitutional. He's just a dude who likes to see how far he can push everything, which is the precise opposite of what we need in a leader, regardless of political affiliation. And, if you think for a second he wouldn't shut down CNN and other outlets if he could...well, I've got some nice properties in Mount Lebanon I'll give you for a good price, but my lawyer is out of town so I can't get the deeds to you for a few weeks.

So, not defending the KKK is just a personal choice based on what they represent, not the fact that they are white. And, I still maintain that those who do not commit any crimes are fully within their Constitutional Right to free speech and free association...not sure how much more of a defense you want.

I mean, if you're looking for me to praise them, that's not going to happen. You can if you want, free speech.

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But we lost nonetheless. Get on Netflix and watch "Vietnam" fast, it goes away next week.

So you are saying the winner gets to write history? CSA is a part of history whether you like it or not. The Confederate Flag is not even the flag of that country, it is a battle flag. It has come to represent the south as an area. It was not a big deal until snowflakes made it a big deal.


The winner does indeed get to write history, or at least, mold the account to better fit their perspective. Yeah, the area who opposes making one very small change because of the division the flag is perceived to represent...which sort of proves the point about that area. Ultimately, it's a piece of fabric that does nothing of its own accord, but not everyone sees it that way.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
June 11th, 2020 at 7:08:06 AM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
Quote: Mission146

The winner does indeed get to write history, or at least, mold the account to better fit their perspective.

Not really
Take the civil war
The states rights issue is total BS propaganda from the South to make them feel better
The Civil war was about slavery.
The whole southern economy was based on slavery.
The most valuable commodity in the south were slaves
Even non-slaveholders in the South supported slavery because the whole southern economy would collapse without slavery
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
June 11th, 2020 at 7:30:02 AM permalink
Mission146
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Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: terapined
Not really
Take the civil war
The states rights issue is total BS propaganda from the South to make them feel better
The Civil war was about slavery.
The whole southern economy was based on slavery.
The most valuable commodity in the south were slaves
Even non-slaveholders in the South supported slavery because the whole southern economy would collapse without slavery


The losers kind of won because we accepted their surrender so easily, which is one of the problems. Of course, people often conveniently forget or don't even know:

Quote: Confederate Constitution Article I, Section 2
(3) Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several States, which may be included within this Confederacy, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three-fifths of all slaves. ,The actual enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the Confederate States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every fifty thousand, but each State shall have at least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of South Carolina shall be entitled to choose six; the State of Georgia ten; the State of Alabama nine; the State of Florida two; the State of Mississippi seven; the State of Louisiana six; and the State of Texas six.


Section 9, (1)&(2)

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Sec. 9. (I) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.

(2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.


At least they were progressive enough that they weren't going to bring in new slaves from abroad, I guess?

Article IV, Section 2 (1)

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Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.


Article IV, Section 2 (3)

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No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs,. or to whom such service or labor may be due.


Article IV, Section 3 (3)

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The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.


In other words, they forbid any new states (which essentially never really happened anyway) from abolishing slavery even within themselves!

I was wrong. I guess they did get to write history!
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
June 11th, 2020 at 7:41:47 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Mission146
What do you mean not defend white people? I'll defend whoever I want to defend, regardless of color.



It is not all about you, Bo. What I mean is in this world if a person defends white people they are called a racist. If they call out bad behavior no matter how deserved they are called a racist. Which is a big part of what is causing the problems we see today. BLM is the same result you get when you never correct a child and they eventually reach adulthood.



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And, if you think for a second he wouldn't shut down CNN and other outlets if he could...well, I've got some nice properties in Mount Lebanon I'll give you for a good price, but my lawyer is out of town so I can't get the deeds to you for a few weeks.


Keep it for yourself as you probably forget when the Democrats tried on more than one occasion to bring back the "Fairness Doctrine" to silence Limbaiugh and other outlets. Not to mention their calls to boycott advertisers of anyone who dares speak something off the PC Plantation.

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The winner does indeed get to write history, or at least, mold the account to better fit their perspective. Yeah, the area who opposes making one very small change because of the division the flag is perceived to represent...which sort of proves the point about that area. Ultimately, it's a piece of fabric that does nothing of its own accord, but not everyone sees it that way.


My position on it is this. If you do not like it, do not look at it. I do not like the gay flag but I do not demand it be removed. I go about life. I wish the haters would do the same.
The President is a fink.
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