Presidential Election 2020 Biden vs. Trump

Poll
6 votes (33.33%)
9 votes (50%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
3 votes (16.66%)

18 members have voted

June 9th, 2020 at 6:16:25 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: RonC
Programs passed in the 60's to help have not done what was expected of them. We never talk about trying to resolve the things that went wrong.

We need a real conversation about minorities getting stopped by police and hassled in ways that does not happen to others at the same rate.

We need to work on making sure schools in all neighborhoods can educate the willing and how to handle the unwilling.

The point is that this is not a "one person" solution...it is hard work and protesting is the easiest part of it.

"Blame Trump" sounds good but the truth is that Trump is a RESULT or SYMPTOM of the lack of real work in DC by elected, appointed, and hired people of all kinds at anything more than protecting their own jobs. Perhaps they aren't "all the same"...but most of them are still in it for longevity and not action.


On the stopped one I have said, lets see if the minorities are committing more violations. On the "hassled" look at how they treat the cops during the interaction. Lets go back to that professor in MA that Obama blamed the cops on.

The guy lost his key and had to break into his house. Happens. Neighbor sees someone breaking in and calls the cops. GOOD FOR HIM. That is a good neighbor.

Cops come and ask about it. Guy says it is his house. Cop asks to see ID. Now it goes off the rails.

A normal adult would thank the cops for coming out and show ID. This guy? He says, "YOUR MOTHER CAN SEE MY ID!" It got worse from there. At that point you force the cop to arrest you, even if the charges will be dropped. Cops cannot leave a belligerent like that.

But the reaction of so many people? Blame the cops because the black guy CAN'T be in the wrong!

A simple showing ID would have solved it. Because a cop cannot assume the guy is not a crook, he has to clear things. So simple. But became a national incident because a black guy had a hate-the-cops chip on his shoulder.

I am betting it happens fairly often.
The President is a fink.
June 9th, 2020 at 6:19:19 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: AZDuffman
On the stopped one I have said, lets see if the minorities are committing more violations. On the "hassled" look at how they treat the cops during the interaction. Lets go back to that professor in MA that Obama blamed the cops on.

The guy lost his key and had to break into his house. Happens. Neighbor sees someone breaking in and calls the cops. GOOD FOR HIM. That is a good neighbor...


(Quote intentionally clipped)

And, there you have the beginning of the problem. The neighbor calling the cops. When the cops get involved, bad things tend to happen. If the neighbor was a REALLY good neighbor, he/she would know what his/her neighbor looks like and understand why said neighbor is, 'Breaking in,' to his or her own house.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
June 9th, 2020 at 6:19:47 AM permalink
RonC
Member since: Nov 7, 2012
Threads: 8
Posts: 2452
Quote: AZDuffman
On the stopped one I have said, lets see if the minorities are committing more violations. On the "hassled" look at how they treat the cops during the interaction. Lets go back to that professor in MA that Obama blamed the cops on.

The guy lost his key and had to break into his house. Happens. Neighbor sees someone breaking in and calls the cops. GOOD FOR HIM. That is a good neighbor.

Cops come and ask about it. Guy says it is his house. Cop asks to see ID. Now it goes off the rails.

A normal adult would thank the cops for coming out and show ID. This guy? He says, "YOUR MOTHER CAN SEE MY ID!" It got worse from there. At that point you force the cop to arrest you, even if the charges will be dropped. Cops cannot leave a belligerent like that.

But the reaction of so many people? Blame the cops because the black guy CAN'T be in the wrong!

A simple showing ID would have solved it. Because a cop cannot assume the guy is not a crook, he has to clear things. So simple. But became a national incident because a black guy had a hate-the-cops chip on his shoulder.

I am betting it happens fairly often.


Have you ever had a conversation with a black person about the issue of being stopped? Their stories mention the reason they were stopped...like no window sticker...but many of their experiences are much different than mine when stopped for the same thing. The stop may be a "good" one, but what takes longer for them to dispose of the issue with a person of color?

Just saying "they gotta fix themselves" is not addressing the whole set of issues.

Sometimes you have to put yourself in the other guy's shoes...
June 9th, 2020 at 6:33:21 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Mission146
(Quote intentionally clipped)

And, there you have the beginning of the problem. The neighbor calling the cops. When the cops get involved, bad things tend to happen. If the neighbor was a REALLY good neighbor, he/she would know what his/her neighbor looks like and understand why said neighbor is, 'Breaking in,' to his or her own house.


And what if you do not know what your neighbor looks like? Most people do not these days.

If I am breaking into my place I hope someone calls and will be glad to show my ID. IOW, act like a grown man not some kid in high school.
The President is a fink.
June 9th, 2020 at 6:37:26 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: AZDuffman
And what if you do not know what your neighbor looks like? Most people do not these days.

If I am breaking into my place I hope someone calls and will be glad to show my ID. IOW, act like a grown man not some kid in high school.


I also agree with what you're saying. You can disagree with the police appearing whilst remaining cooperative with the police. If cops want to see my ID for whatever reason, then I'm going to show it to them.

Although, I think not knowing your neighbors is a symptom of the increasing partisanship and animosity that plagues society. I think knowing what your neighbors look like and being able and willing to help each other with small things is a worthy goal.

Maybe if you had a neighbor you really trusted, they could even hold a spare key for you and you wouldn't have to break a window.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
June 9th, 2020 at 6:46:57 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Mission146
I also agree with what you're saying. You can disagree with the police appearing whilst remaining cooperative with the police. If cops want to see my ID for whatever reason, then I'm going to show it to them.

Although, I think not knowing your neighbors is a symptom of the increasing partisanship and animosity that plagues society. I think knowing what your neighbors look like and being able and willing to help each other with small things is a worthy goal.

Maybe if you had a neighbor you really trusted, they could even hold a spare key for you and you wouldn't have to break a window.


I do not have a neighbor I trust. I have one of those push-button combo locks on one door.

It is not "partisanship" why you do not know your neighbor. It is television. It is air conditioning. It is internet. It is lawn services. It is the average person moving once every 5 years.

You do not remember the 70s or before. Back then you were outside your house way, way more than you are today. You interacted more. Times have changed in that regard.
The President is a fink.
June 9th, 2020 at 7:28:35 AM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 73
Posts: 11786
Quote: RonC
Have you ever had a conversation with a black person about the issue of being stopped? Their stories mention the reason they were stopped...like no window sticker...but many of their experiences are much different than mine when stopped for the same thing. The stop may be a "good" one, but what takes longer for them to dispose of the issue with a person of color?

Just saying "they gotta fix themselves" is not addressing the whole set of issues.

Sometimes you have to put yourself in the other guy's shoes...

How about the black guy in Austin driving and did not dim his lights as a cop drives by
Cop immediately did a U turn and started chasing
Such a minor infraction but the cop needed to entertain his passengers, Live PD video show
Anyway the black driver died while in custody after being tased about 4 times
A dead black motorist over failing to dim lights

Black man heard saying 'I can't breathe' multiple times during fatal arrest in Texas, body camera video shows
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/austin-texas-police-fatal-arrest/index.html
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
June 9th, 2020 at 7:34:55 AM permalink
kenarman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 14
Posts: 4470
Quote: AZDuffman
On the stopped one I have said, lets see if the minorities are committing more violations. On the "hassled" look at how they treat the cops during the interaction. Lets go back to that professor in MA that Obama blamed the cops on.

The guy lost his key and had to break into his house. Happens. Neighbor sees someone breaking in and calls the cops. GOOD FOR HIM. That is a good neighbor.

Cops come and ask about it. Guy says it is his house. Cop asks to see ID. Now it goes off the rails.

A normal adult would thank the cops for coming out and show ID. This guy? He says, "YOUR MOTHER CAN SEE MY ID!" It got worse from there. At that point you force the cop to arrest you, even if the charges will be dropped. Cops cannot leave a belligerent like that.

But the reaction of so many people? Blame the cops because the black guy CAN'T be in the wrong!

A simple showing ID would have solved it. Because a cop cannot assume the guy is not a crook, he has to clear things. So simple. But became a national incident because a black guy had a hate-the-cops chip on his shoulder.

I am betting it happens fairly often.


It all starts when you don't treat the police with respect even if they don't deserve it. My grandson lives with us and several years ago he and 2 friends came home and my wife and I are out. They try the front door of the condo and it is locked. The 3 of them then go around and down to the basement door. We had a key hidden there which he gets unlocks the door and they go into the condo. Some nosy neighbour phones the police about kids breaking in. The cops arrive and the boys at 14 decide to ignore the cops knocking on the door which of course was a bad idea. The cops kick in my door, pull their weapons and call the kids down from upstairs. The boys have to walk down the stairs toward 2 cops with drawn weapons and were scared shitless. Non of the boys had any picture ID on them so the cops take the 2 friends to the station and grill them for an hour. Mom grandson is locked in the patrol car for more than 45 minutes and grilled before he can convince the cop he is a resident of the house.

So my grandson and his friends are white and the cops were over the top. So no racism, no story, no media, no hash tags, no protests. My response was to give him shit about not opening the door. I eventually talked to a RCMP sergeant I knew about the incident and that was it. How many other incidents like this occur that never make the news because it would of course only happen to people of colour or where I live first nations heritage.
"but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin
June 9th, 2020 at 7:38:54 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: AZDuffman
I do not have a neighbor I trust. I have one of those push-button combo locks on one door.

It is not "partisanship" why you do not know your neighbor. It is television. It is air conditioning. It is internet. It is lawn services. It is the average person moving once every 5 years.

You do not remember the 70s or before. Back then you were outside your house way, way more than you are today. You interacted more. Times have changed in that regard.


I remember the 90's. I lived such that everyone knew everyone else on the block by first name. The parents would have little hangout factions, of course, people they liked better than others. A few folks were related to others on the block. There was only one house where the parents routinely argued with the other neighbors, and even then, they were nice to all of the kids. You know the type. They have an outside dog and, when that dog barks, not a problem...but the neighbors' dogs all bark three times louder (despite being mostly inside dogs) if you ask them and do it, 'All hours of the night,' despite being inside dogs and everyone (including the dogs themselves) is asleep.

I think partisanship is partially responsible because you have a bunch of folks wearing their politics on their sleeve, in some cases literally, or wearing their politics on their heads, again, MAGA. Oh, here's a Republican, I don't want to talk to him. Oh, this guy has nerdy looking thick black glasses, must be one of those far left folks, don't want to talk to him. Oh, this guy has a Trump yard sign, must be an @$$hol3, that sort of thing.

So, I think you just take any two people in this day and age and they start with a default position that they probably hate one another. Even in the two are in general political lockstep, then they'll disagree on something trivial and be done with one another, implementation, whatever. I think the left is probably more skilled at conducting ridiculous ideological purity tests than is the right.

You did touch on a good point with Internet and I do think social media has related downsides. People can talk with anyone in the world and can say things they would never even contemplate saying in person unless they wanted to eat one straight to the jaw. It's just middle school all over again. More than that, the Internet lends to itself the ability to find not only heated (and mostly pointless) divisive argument, but also to find echo chambers, if that is more to one's liking. If one is not the argumentative type, then one can settle in and enjoy the world away from the meat puppets where all the great thinkers agree with one another and parrot different versions of the same exact thing.

Oh, you don't like PC, woke, social justice culture...that's okay because I don't have to deal with you. BLOCKED. So, even on the site that's supposed to be for everybody, the only time most people talk to people with views contrary to their own is if they are looking for a fight (or to find an example of someone to ridicule to their friends) rather than a substantive discussion.

If there's a difference between the Internet and the real world it's that you can have more of what you want with the former, but the main problem is that it does not actually exist in any real sense. Pretty soon, they'll come up with AI that can wax political and people won't even have to deal with seeing other names associated with the statements following them...or they will, but they won't know or care whether or not the names actually represent a living person. Actually, I see some folks on the left who just default to everything in the playbook and some Trumpuppets who think that he is a flawless man sent here directly from God, or something. What happened to saying, "I generally agree with the Democrats, but on this issue I disagree because..."?

Anyway, I say it is largely partisanship which is why people would often rather engage in heated arguments or echo chambers rather than sit around on the front porch, or inside if it's too hot, and play Euchre or something over tea. Maybe touch on a little politics, but the conversation is quickly dropped if it shows any signs of becoming heated.

But, then, the access to information and ability to thoroughly research any subject at all on a whim...and quickly! I guess everything has a certain opportunity cost, doesn't it?
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
June 9th, 2020 at 7:43:31 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: terapined
How about the black guy in Austin driving and did not dim his lights as a cop drives by
Cop immediately did a U turn and started chasing
Such a minor infraction but the cop needed to entertain his passengers, Live PD video show
Anyway the black driver died while in custody after being tased about 4 times
A dead black motorist over failing to dim lights

Black man heard saying 'I can't breathe' multiple times during fatal arrest in Texas, body camera video shows
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/austin-texas-police-fatal-arrest/index.html


It's like the point RonC made about the initial reason for the pullover. I got pulled over once for giving a cop the brights, but I was coming around a bend on a winding hill and had no way to know he was there...which is the precise reason I had the brights on...so I wouldn't hit any deer for failing to see them!

Anyway, it was a reasonable cause for a stop. I pulled over on the street a half mile after he started tailing me. I presented my ID when asked. He asked why I was going around giving people the brights and I explained myself. He said I shouldn't go around with my brights on anymore because he apparently had the IQ of a turnip, but in any case, did not ticket me. He was also upset I waited so long to pull over, so I asked him, "Would you prefer in the middle of the road on a hill?"

Probably just a convenient excuse for a DWY (Driving While Young) stop. Everyone goes on that hill with the brights, and sometimes people get flashed, but everybody knows why it happens and there's nothing malicious behind it.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman