Science and Religion

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October 20th, 2019 at 1:26:08 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Evenbob
Who says it has to come from
'somewhere', that's just an
assumption you're making.
How could you possibly know.
Just be patient, all the questions
will be answered eventually.
Blaming some god for what
we don't know is slamming the
door on science. We had that
mindset for far too long.


Science says it has to come from somewhere.

"Just be patient, all the questions will be answered eventually." Hmmm, you sound like a TV Preacher.
The President is a fink.
October 20th, 2019 at 1:27:43 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman
You mean like the physical law that life cannot spontaneously generate out of nothing?


That law applies to everything. You
start with nothing, you get nothing.
You're assuming there was nothing
in the beginning, you don't really
know. You don't even know if there
was a beginning, you don't know
that the universe might just have
been here forever.

Again, this is what religion always
does, assumes and fills in the blanks
with god, and slams the door on it.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 20th, 2019 at 1:30:37 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman
Science says it has to come from somewhere.
.


Science never says that. Science
never starts with an unproven
conclusion. It always starts with
a blank slate and slowly fills
it up with facts. Religion
always starts with the answer,
god. Then it works backwards
from there.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 20th, 2019 at 1:36:11 PM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: rxwine

The evidence is all supposedly done already at one time. That's all I'm asking.


And because it happened once, it HAS TO BE ABLE to happen again. And of course, the omnipotent and omniscient and infallible COULD do it again. So... show me.

I find it weird the claim that "even with proof, atheists still wouldn't believe". I will fully admit that it'd take a lot for me to just drop it and accept. Split water? I've seen it happen. Not just in apocalyptic tsunamis, either. The Great Lakes experience a seiche every decade or so. EB may remember boats hanging from dock lines back in '95. Wasn't God, just a steady wind. I'm a child of the internet; it's gonna take a lot to wow me, to show me something I haven't seen before.

And there are plenty of just such things in the Bible. 240mm Christians in the US? Just ONE come Lay on Hands. Fix my back and my gun nuttery would pale to the proselytizing I would engage in. Come touch my hyacinth and let me watch it wither before me. Call forth a run of salmon in July. You're God. Wowing me should be as easy as creating the moon and stars. You know my mind. You know my heart. Do that thing that you know would get my attention.

*crickets*
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
October 20th, 2019 at 1:36:20 PM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 154
Posts: 5055
I believe there is an argument out there that you have to pick the un-caused cause. Now, I didn't come up with this, it is out there. It goes something like this? FrG can correct me?

Judeo-Christian teaching has it that God created the universe. He was already in existence, exists eternally with no beginning or end to Him. This does not explore, then, who created God, but from a purely philosophical standpoint, this is a question that can be asked. J-C tradition says God is the uncaused cause.

An atheist is more comfortable with the idea that the universe itself is the uncaused cause.

Others might feel God exists but was created by someone before Him, and that can go on too. I don't know if any religions teach this. But from a purely philosophical standpoint, *absent evidence or faith*, there's no reason to say one philosophy makes more sense than another.

I ought to google this myself. Later.
I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]
October 20th, 2019 at 1:39:14 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Evenbob
That law applies to everything. You
start with nothing, you get nothing.
You're assuming there was nothing
in the beginning, you don't really
know. You don't even know if there
was a beginning, you don't know
that the universe might just have
been here forever.

Again, this is what religion always
does, assumes and fills in the blanks
with god, and slams the door on it.


Assuming everything was always here seems fantasy to me. Lets just start with Earth. We know it has only been here about 4.5MMM years. We know there was a beginning. As to the universe, gravity proves that everything either came from one spot and exploded or is imploding upon itself.

Science.

So, how did life come from no life?
The President is a fink.
October 20th, 2019 at 1:42:08 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: AZDuffman
Uh, no. I have seen it said at least a few times atheists claiming there can be no God. "Agnostic" would fit what you state above. That is not what we have here.



I am sure they are out there but do not believe we will ever find one. Too many reasons that make it not possible.



I extend the challenge to you as well. Please show how life can spring from no life. If the fact that life has to come from somewhere does not convince a person then their mind is closed to the point they will not be convinced.


This is an argument called "God of the Gaps".

I cannot nor can the most brilliant scientist on the earth explain exactly how life started from nothing. I am admitting that I do not know. You are claiming exclusive knowledge that you know exactly how it happened (God).

The simple fact is, I am not making a claim (I am denying a claim based off of no evidence). I am also not claiming to be able to explain everything today. The brilliant thing about science is that whatever is unknown is being worked on.



Oh and the difference between Agnostic and Atheist. Agnostic essentially means "unsure of existence of Gods", Atheist means "Does not actively beleive in a God". If you are unsure, you are not an active believer, and by definition are an atheist. There is just a stigma with the word atheist where some people view it as too polarizing (even my parents are like "please don't say you are an atheist, etc... It used to be a slur back in the day, I think it is important to reclaim good words, Atheist is a good word. )
October 20th, 2019 at 1:47:00 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Quote: Face
And because it happened once, it HAS TO BE ABLE to happen again. And of course, the omnipotent and omniscient and infallible COULD do it again. So... show me.

I find it weird the claim that "even with proof, atheists still wouldn't believe". I will fully admit that it'd take a lot for me to just drop it and accept. Split water? I've seen it happen. Not just in apocalyptic tsunamis, either. The Great Lakes experience a seiche every decade or so. EB may remember boats hanging from dock lines back in '95. Wasn't God, just a steady wind. I'm a child of the internet; it's gonna take a lot to wow me, to show me something I haven't seen before.

And there are plenty of just such things in the Bible. 240mm Christians in the US? Just ONE come Lay on Hands. Fix my back and my gun nuttery would pale to the proselytizing I would engage in. Come touch my hyacinth and let me watch it wither before me. Call forth a run of salmon in July. You're God. Wowing me should be as easy as creating the moon and stars. You know my mind. You know my heart. Do that thing that you know would get my attention.

*crickets*


I don't how authentic the scene was, but there is a rather sad/funny scene in the movie where Jim Carrey plays the comedian Andy Kaufman who after finding out he has terminal cancer makes a trip to another country to see a surgical faith healer. During the faith surgery, he is able to detect that the faith healer is doing slight of hand, and making it look like some chicken guts (or whatever it was) was part of the cancer being drawn out of his body. He reacts like any good comedian seeing one of the best bad jokes ever that he had fallen for and reacts with laughter.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
October 20th, 2019 at 1:49:46 PM permalink
odiousgambit
Member since: Oct 28, 2012
Threads: 154
Posts: 5055
Quote: Gandler
Oh and the difference between Agnostic and Atheist. Agnostic essentially means "unsure of existence of Gods", Atheist means "Does not actively beleive in a God". If you are unsure, you are not an active believer, and by definition are an atheist. There is just a stigma with the word atheist where some people view it as too polarizing (even my parents are like "please don't say you are an atheist, etc...
I can see you must have it your way. I want it my way, which is that you can't say being an agnostic is not allowed, which is what I feel you are basically saying. Other than to say yours is a minority opinion from what I can tell, I'm just going to have to let it go
Quote:
It used to be a slur back in the day, I think it is important to reclaim good words, Atheist is a good word. )
We can agree on that ; there's no need for it to be a slur.
I'm Still Standing, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah [it's an old guy chant for me]
October 20th, 2019 at 1:55:00 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Gandler
This is an argument called "God of the Gaps".

I cannot nor can the most brilliant scientist on the earth explain exactly how life started from nothing. I am admitting that I do not know. You are claiming exclusive knowledge that you know exactly how it happened (God).


No. I am saying that I believe there is a God. And I am saying that until the atheists want to explain how life came from nothing they do not have a leg to stand on.

Quote:
Oh and the difference between Agnostic and Atheist. Agnostic essentially means "unsure of existence of Gods", Atheist means "Does not actively beleive in a God". If you are unsure, you are not an active believer, and by definition are an atheist. There is just a stigma with the word atheist where some people view it as too polarizing (even my parents are like "please don't say you are an atheist, etc... It used to be a slur back in the day, I think it is important to reclaim good words, Atheist is a good word. )


No. Atheist means "actively believes there is no God." Look at groups like American Atheists and other atheist activist. They are not "unsure." A person who is "unsure" does not make the argument that there is no God, as you are doing here.

Same as not believing that the pro-choice movement is pro-abortion. I look at what groups are doing, not what their press releases say they are doing.
The President is a fink.
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