Columbus Day or Indiginous People'd Day?

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October 17th, 2019 at 9:16:17 PM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
"they had something the white man will never have, they had enough.
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
October 17th, 2019 at 11:55:18 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: petroglyph
"they had something the white man will never have, they had enough.


If that were true, why were there
constant and continuous Indian
wars. Indians fighting Indians.
If they had enough, what were
they warring about.

From what I read, the wars
were always about control of
territory and resources. Just
like every other war humans
fight. So Indians weren't any
happier than any other culture.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 18th, 2019 at 5:12:29 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Evenbob
Native Americans were basically still
in the Stone Age. They had no tech
at all. No bronze or iron, very few
had a written language. As a whole
they just weren't all that bright.
That can be the only explanation.
They had the same needs as Europeans,
and they certainly had the natural
resources. They just didn't have the
brain power to pull themselves out
of the Stone Age.


Historically it seems that a society has to get past the hunter-gatherer stage to start tech advancement. Which makes sense. When you have to hunt and gather you are never more than a couple days ahead. Most of your day is spent on the basics. With agriculture, though it will be backbreaking work at least it is consistent and predicable. You get some time to do other things, which is when new things are invented.

Many tribes of course did some agriculture. The "Three Sisters" method of farming was a smart idea. But it is still hard to see why those tribes did not dominate more and organize a larger society.
The President is a fink.
October 18th, 2019 at 9:35:06 AM permalink
Face
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 61
Posts: 3941
Quote: Gandler
But, the Spanish did far more long term good with their discovery and colonization.


Based on WHAT?

The Incas had the greatest dynasty in the world. Larger than the Ming. They had language, culture, math, science, medicine, government, arts, astrology, engineering. Great Works. World Wonders. Trade. Travel. THEY discovered and pioneered socialism long before the days of Marx. It was the greatest civilization of the 15th and 16th century.

It's positively bonkers how well we've been erased. Here, I'll do y'all a solid (this especially goes out to EB, who's always searching). I offer you the gift of knowledge. Remove the veil of ignorance from your eyes. It hurts my heart to see folks running around claiming 2 + 2 = German potato salad..

"The Native Peoples of North America" - Professor Daniel Cobb.
"A People's History of the United States" - Howard Zinn
"1491: New Revelations of America Before Colombus" - Charles C. Mann
"Open Veins of Latin America" - Eduardo Galeana

"Long term good" lol. Untold trillions of dollars of land and resources, my heritage, my culture, my history, my home, DESTROYED. Great Works burned. Wonders toppled. Statues cut up, melted down into coins, and stolen. That was my inheritance. That was my life. And it's gone. 60,000,000 people dead in the greatest extermination the world has ever seen of the greatest civilization on Earth, and you use the words "long term good".

It's historical negationism. From wiki...

Quote: Wiki
Historical negationism, also called denialism, is a distortion of the historical record.

Usually, the purpose of historical negation is to achieve a national, political aim, by transferring war-guilt, demonizing an enemy, providing an illusion of victory, or preserving a friendship. Sometimes the purpose of a revised history is to sell more books or to attract attention with a newspaper headline. The historian James M. McPherson said that negationists would want revisionist history understood as, "a consciously-falsified or distorted interpretation of the past to serve partisan or ideological purposes in the present"


If you find my post pointed, it is. But I don't mean that tip to find you. Rather I'm incensed by this culture of lies and falsehoods, tired of the weakness of spirit and lack of integrity that caused such a low esteem we must wrap ourselves in a shield of feel good fakery. F#$%ing tired of it.

Read those books. Lift the veil. You'll be a better person for it.
Be bold and risk defeat, or be cautious and encourage it.
October 18th, 2019 at 10:31:40 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Quote: AZDuffman
Historically it seems that a society has to get past the hunter-gatherer stage to start tech advancement. Which makes sense. When you have to hunt and gather you are never more than a couple days ahead. Most of your day is spent on the basics. With agriculture, though it will be backbreaking work at least it is consistent and predicable. You get some time to do other things, which is when new things are invented.

Many tribes of course did some agriculture. The "Three Sisters" method of farming was a smart idea. But it is still hard to see why those tribes did not dominate more and organize a larger society.


It’s not always easy to figure out what events affected progress. Long term drought would likely turn back progress in agriculture. If n. America had plenty of space people likely packed up and moved. Human civilization probably needs a certain amount of luck to thrive beyond the early stages. A hundred years of progress could be wiped out by floods, invasion, or maybe fires that were larger than past years.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
October 18th, 2019 at 10:57:33 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman
But it is still hard to see why those tribes did not dominate more and organize a larger society.


It might have something to do with
women having a great say in how
things were run. Which wasn't
true in the rest of the world. Native
American women had a great
influence over decisions. Like
Camille Paglia has said, if women ran
the world we'd still be living in huts
and hunting and gathering. Which
is what Indians were doing when we
found them.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 18th, 2019 at 12:33:43 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: rxwine
It’s not always easy to figure out what events affected progress. Long term drought would likely turn back progress in agriculture. If n. America had plenty of space people likely packed up and moved. Human civilization probably needs a certain amount of luck to thrive beyond the early stages. A hundred years of progress could be wiped out by floods, invasion, or maybe fires that were larger than past years.


I'm not quite buying that. Tribes did not move far, a few hundred miles would be a big move because they would run into another tribe. All the disasters you speak of hit Europe. The Black Death did not turn farmers into hunter-gatherers. To call it "luck" is to say the same 5 guys who keep at the top of the poker tournament board at your local poker room are just the 5 luckiest guys in the joint.

Consider that North America had the same great geography before discovery. The same natural resources, the same navigable waterways. Yet the Indians had not developed beyond tribes to something resembling the nation-state system the Europeans had. Ditto in Africa. Why?
The President is a fink.
October 18th, 2019 at 12:39:27 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: Face
Based on WHAT?

The Incas had the greatest dynasty in the world. Larger than the Ming. They had language, culture, math, science, medicine, government, arts, astrology, engineering. Great Works. World Wonders. Trade. Travel. THEY discovered and pioneered socialism long before the days of Marx. It was the greatest civilization of the 15th and 16th century.

It's positively bonkers how well we've been erased. Here, I'll do y'all a solid (this especially goes out to EB, who's always searching). I offer you the gift of knowledge. Remove the veil of ignorance from your eyes. It hurts my heart to see folks running around claiming 2 + 2 = German potato salad..

"The Native Peoples of North America" - Professor Daniel Cobb.
"A People's History of the United States" - Howard Zinn
"1491: New Revelations of America Before Colombus" - Charles C. Mann
"Open Veins of Latin America" - Eduardo Galeana

"Long term good" lol. Untold trillions of dollars of land and resources, my heritage, my culture, my history, my home, DESTROYED. Great Works burned. Wonders toppled. Statues cut up, melted down into coins, and stolen. That was my inheritance. That was my life. And it's gone. 60,000,000 people dead in the greatest extermination the world has ever seen of the greatest civilization on Earth, and you use the words "long term good".

It's historical negationism. From wiki...



If you find my post pointed, it is. But I don't mean that tip to find you. Rather I'm incensed by this culture of lies and falsehoods, tired of the weakness of spirit and lack of integrity that caused such a low esteem we must wrap ourselves in a shield of feel good fakery. F#$%ing tired of it.

Read those books. Lift the veil. You'll be a better person for it.


I am also Part Native American, but I am mostly Finnish.

I don't hate Russia for the seizure of land (which actually happened in the lifetime of some people still alive) and mass murder. Nations do mean things during war.

But, yes I am well educated in culture and history. I think Euproean colonization did more good than harm. There was not even Blue Water navies or significant domesticated animals before Europeans and Asians came over....

Yes there was some other advances like math, calendars, and agriculture in the New World. But, Europe and Asian countries were far more advanced, that was simply a fact.

And most of those millions of deaths were not due to cruelty, or was due to poor immune systems of the Natives...

If you let yourself get upset over the sins of history, it's too much, there are enough current atrocities in our world that we need to be working on.....

I accept the sins of history, but I neither feel victimized by some or apologetic for others... I am only resposible for what I am directly involved in, I don't have any connection to my ancestors....
October 18th, 2019 at 12:48:19 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Gandler


If you let yourself get upset over the sins of history, it's too much, there are enough current atrocities in our world that we need to be working on.....


This is a huge thing. A Black guy I used to work with unfriended me when I told him to get over slavery after he made rant after rant on FB. Reality is slavery does not affect any Black alive today, and if it was not taught in history people would not know it existed.

I could get mad about how the Irish were treated by the Brits. Or land people on my mother's mother's side had stolen by the Austro-Hungarians. Would any of that get me anything?

Today an Indian can live in squalor on a reservation, bitter over history. Or they can decide what is is and make the best life they can. Dirty secret is that the choice will hardly affect anyone other than them one way or another.
The President is a fink.
October 18th, 2019 at 1:03:12 PM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 188
Posts: 18633
Quote: AZDuffman
I'm not quite buying that. Tribes did not move far, a few hundred miles would be a big move because they would run into another tribe. All the disasters you speak of hit Europe. The Black Death did not turn farmers into hunter-gatherers. To call it "luck" is to say the same 5 guys who keep at the top of the poker tournament board at your local poker room are just the 5 luckiest guys in the joint.

Consider that North America had the same great geography before discovery. The same natural resources, the same navigable waterways. Yet the Indians had not developed beyond tribes to something resembling the nation-state system the Europeans had. Ditto in Africa. Why?


Even when Louis and Clark showed up and traveled across to the west there was lots of territory without people. Maybe they just didn't feel the need to establish much. Drive across much of the US today, and there's still lots of land today. Except certain places.

It actually may be that it wasn't crowded enough yet. You have to build up fortress or castles when your enemies are close as they're around more of the time.

We know that primitive people have lived next to technologically advanced people even in the last decades and felt no need to upgrade. Never heard of any study that claiming they were brain addled except sometimes when their environment is missing key nutrients. Some of these people have moved into modern civilization.
You believe in an invisible god, and dismiss people who say they are trans? Really?
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