Columbus Day or Indiginous People'd Day?

Quote: zippyboy

Face: Cortes conquered the Aztecs in Mexico didn't he? Not the Inca in Peru.

Yes, sorry. I use Cortes (incorrectly) for south same as we use Colombo (incorrectly) for north. Should have, more correctly, just said "Spain". I forget the proper dude's name, I just remember it sounded Italian. Pirrazo or Paterro or something like that.

Francisco Pizarro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9CG07CzBTg


I just saw this clip of Neil deGrasse Tyson on how Columbus coming to America was the "most significant thing to ever happen in our species".

This is not a popular claim (particularly on the left), but its what I have been trying to explain. A lot of the Anti-Columbus crowd (which seems to be flaming up again with the BLM riots, and will no doubt flame up even more when Columbus Day gets closer) seem to dislike Columbus for no logical reason.

Its refreshing to hear a calm and rational view on the subject.

Quote: Face

despite my culture's stated stance (we were here forever) ..

I was always told that Hawaii was the last significant place to be settled by human beings. I know that there are small islands in the Pacific that have had human settlements only for about 100 years.

Menehune are a mythological dwarf people in Hawaiian tradition who are said to live in the deep forests and hidden valleys of the Hawaiian Islands, hidden and far away from human settlements. Legends have them immigrated to Hawaii as early as 2nd-6th century and died out leaving only the stories

In 2010 researchers announced new findings using revised, high-precision radiocarbon dating based on more reliable samples than were previously used in many dating studies. This new data indicates that the period of eastern and northern Polynesian colonization took place much later, in a shorter time frame of two waves: the "earliest in the Society Islands c. 1025 – 1120, four centuries later than previously assumed; then after 70–265 y, dispersal continued in one major pulse to all remaining islands c. 1190 – 1290."

According to this research, settlement of the Hawaiian Islands took place circa 1219–1266. This rapid colonization is believed to account for the "remarkable uniformity of East Polynesia culture, biology and language."

Polynesian Population
1219–1450 up to 160,000
1450–1500 ≈110,000 to 160,000 Peak of heiau construction as well as agricultural burning of lands for farming.
1500–1600 ≈150,000 Decreasing agricultural burning until ~1600.
1600–1700 ≈96,000 Population declined
1736-1761 Kamehameha born
1700–1778 ≈128,000 Population bounced back
Captain Cook sails to Hawaii in 1778

Quote: Gandler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9CG07CzBTg


I just saw this clip of Neil deGrasse Tyson on how Columbus coming to America was the "most significant thing to ever happen in our species".

This is not a popular claim (particularly on the left), but its what I have been trying to explain. A lot of the Anti-Columbus crowd (which seems to be flaming up again with the BLM riots, and will no doubt flame up even more when Columbus Day gets closer) seem to dislike Columbus for no logical reason.

Its refreshing to hear a calm and rational view on the subject.

Hitler was very significant as well. And it's impossible to even calculate the ways history might be different without him.

Quote: rxwine

Hitler was very significant as well. And it's impossible to even calculate the ways history might be different without him.

It would just be a different person responsible for all the killing. Stalin was more evil than Hitler. Germany was on a path to start WWII no matter what happened. If not for Hitler it might just have been later.

Like it or not, Columbus was probably the most significant person in history after Jesus Christ.

Kind of interesting to see what was interesting about Columbus to an astronomer, a different perspective for sure. He's right about a couple of things, any Viking discovery-of-America just came to nothing, and Europeans coming to America was inevitable. Anyone thinking that if somebody had knocked off Columbus early on, things would have been materially different, is just delusional.

The Spaniards and the Portuguese in particular were just too interested in expanding Trade to leave the world unexplored.

Logically the Chinese should have beat the Europeans in discovering America, they had a massive fleet of ocean-going ships, but in reaction to something hard to understand*, they became more insular instead.

Quote: link

... by 1525, all of China's "Treasure Fleet" ships had been destroyed -- burned in their docks or left to rot by the government. China had been poised to circumnavigate the globe decades before the Europeans did, but instead the Ming Dynasty retracted into itself and entered a 200-year-long slump.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/500-years-ago-china-destroyed-its-world-dominating-navy-because-its-political-elite-was-afraid-of-a7612276.html

*this same link has an explanation that I haven't really read yet though

Quote: odiousgambit

Kind of interesting to see what was interesting about Columbus to an astronomer, a different perspective for sure. He's right about a couple of things, any Viking discovery-of-America just came to nothing, and Europeans coming to America was inevitable. Anyone thinking that if somebody had knocked off Columbus early on, things would have been materially different, is just delusional.

The Spaniards and the Portuguese in particular were just too interested in expanding Trade to leave the world unexplored.

Logically the Chinese should have beat the Europeans in discovering America, they had a massive fleet of ocean-going ships, but in reaction to something hard to understand*, they became more insular instead.

Historically China has moved between opening up to and closing off to the rest of the world. When this phase of her population aging really starts biting she may start to close off again.

Quote: rxwine

Hitler was very significant as well. And it's impossible to even calculate the ways history might be different without him.

Columbus being evil claims are grossly exaggerated (and sometimes just false).....


https://youtu.be/ZEw8c6TmzGg

Quote: Gandler

Columbus being evil claims are grossly exaggerated (and sometimes just false).....

Fine. Of course, from the same video, and the same guy talking.

"Admittedly American folklore has probably turned him into a bigger deal than he should be, given his rather minimal involvement in US history, which is why I personally don't think we should have a day to celebrate him."

https://youtu.be/ZEw8c6TmzGg?t=1560