Andrew Yang seems pretty awesome

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August 15th, 2019 at 10:27:47 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman
It is not going to change.


In 1949 Mao made it the death penalty
for anyone caught selling or using
opium. It changed overnight and remains
changed to this day.

You see these people on Live PD get
stopped with 90 pounds of heroin
hidden in the door panels. They go to
jail for a few years and are back out
dealing again. What you can't see is the
40 times they got away with it before
they were caught.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 15th, 2019 at 10:32:25 AM permalink
gamerfreak
Member since: Feb 19, 2018
Threads: 4
Posts: 527
Quote: kenarman
The math simply doesn't work Padre. The GDP of the US is about $60K per capita, $12K is 20% of the GDP. There is no way any country can give away 20% of it's GDP with no return for it.

I don’t understand your point.

UBI money isn’t going into a black hole. It will be spent and put back into the economy.
August 15th, 2019 at 10:47:48 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: gamerfreak

UBI money isn’t going into a black hole. It will be spent and put back into the economy.



Making it sound like a perpetual
motion machine doesn't work.
Peter can only borrow from Paul
for so long until both are broke.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 15th, 2019 at 10:55:09 AM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
Threads: 6
Posts: 1600
UBI is a consumption tax. How many rude posts about welfare queens and the 47% by resentful right-wing people on here have we slogged through for years? All the stuff about EBD users with iPhone and bling buying steak while sponging off the "rest of us".

But here's a guy saying, don't finance those people any more. Charge them a VAT on the cell phone, the bling, the steaks, and everything else they buy. Charge you at the SAME percentage of your purchases. Send everyone a check for 1k/mo, regardless of income. Everyone. 100%, not 47%.

No more welfare queens. No more 47%. No more income tax paying for entitlements. No more working people paying for retirements of others or non-workers.

But, no. Those same people reject that approach without even looking at it, just because it's being proposed by a Democratic candidate. Tag it as "Socialist" and dismiss it when it actually provides the parity that right-wingers claim the current system doesn't. It's the flattest tax ever. It's supremely Capitalistic. Make or sell a product people want. They now have the funds to buy it. Part of the cost replenishes their (and your) funds. Rinse and repeat.

I'm not saying it's THE answer. But the math makes sense, even if there are flaws to be worked out in implementation.

Entitlements are 21% of the federal budget for FY2018. To call it a "budget" is a joke, since this Administration is totally ignoring spending almost a TRILLION more a year than their revenue. But that budget would nearly balance, even with the reprehensible tax cuts from last year, without entitlements coming out of it.

Yes, you'd pay a small percentage more on everything you buy. But so would EVERYONE else at the same rate. Isn't that exactly what all the whining has been about?

Andrew Yang is not my guy. Amy Klobuchar is. But Andrew is a force for good, and change that would fix some problems. I'd be happy to support him if it comes to that.
Never doubt a small group of concerned citizens can change the world; it's the only thing ever has
August 15th, 2019 at 11:02:55 AM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: beachbumbabs
UBI is a consumption tax. How many rude posts about welfare queens and the 47% by resentful right-wing people on here have we slogged through for years? All the stuff about EBD users with iPhone and bling buying steak while sponging off the "rest of us".

But here's a guy saying, don't finance those people any more. Charge them a VAT on the cell phone, the bling, the steaks, and everything else they buy. Charge you at the SAME percentage of your purchases. Send everyone a check for 1k/mo, regardless of income. Everyone. 100%, not 47%.

No more welfare queens. No more 47%. No more income tax paying for entitlements. No more working people paying for retirements of others or non-workers.

But, no. Those same people reject that approach without even looking at it, just because it's being proposed by a Democratic candidate. Tag it as "Socialist" and dismiss it when it actually provides the parity that right-wingers claim the current system doesn't. It's the flattest tax ever. It's supremely Capitalistic. Make or sell a product people want. They now have the funds to buy it. Part of the cost replenishes their (and your) funds. Rinse and repeat.

I'm not saying it's THE answer. But the math makes sense, even if there are flaws to be worked out in implementation.

Entitlements are 21% of the federal budget for FY2018. To call it a "budget" is a joke, since this Administration is totally ignoring spending almost a TRILLION more a year than their revenue. But that budget would nearly balance, even with the reprehensible tax cuts from last year, without entitlements coming out of it.

Yes, you'd pay a small percentage more on everything you buy. But so would EVERYONE else at the same rate. Isn't that exactly what all the whining has been about?

Andrew Yang is not my guy. Amy Klobuchar is. But Andrew is a force for good, and change that would fix some problems. I'd be happy to support him if it comes to that.


That is a pretty good summary the goal of UBI is to get people off of entitlements (with the obvious exceptions being disability and SS and state level entitlements).

I actually learned about UBI for the first time years back from libertarian friends. It is popular in some libertarian circles for exactly those reasons.
August 15th, 2019 at 11:35:23 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: beachbumbabs


I'm not saying it's THE answer. But the math makes sense,


If it's workable and makes sense,
make it $10k a month. It will work
just as well for that amount, right?
Like minimum wage, if $15 an
hour is workable, why not make
it $25 an hour.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 15th, 2019 at 11:54:30 AM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
Member since: Oct 23, 2012
Threads: 239
Posts: 6095
Quote: Gandler
Can you do a video explaining the Freedom Dividend? ...


Thanks for asking. I appreciate you remembering my background as a government actuary. My area was limited to just Social Security, but my calculations were often in the trillions of dollars when it came to changes in Social Security law. Let me get my hands dirty with some numbers and bounce them off here first. I make no mistake that there would be a HUGE increase in taxes to pay for it. My hope is the average middle class family comes out around even or a little ahead.

As I've said before, my main motive is to eliminate welfare. Not just the freeing up more people to perform productive work in the economy (both people on welfare and those who work for the agencies paying it) but to eliminate the moral hazard of welfare of rewarding for making mistakes.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
August 15th, 2019 at 11:55:33 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3687
Why not propose a ridiculous strawman argument, and point out how how ridiculous it is?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
August 15th, 2019 at 12:13:28 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: Evenbob
If it's workable and makes sense,
make it $10k a month. It will work
just as well for that amount, right?
Like minimum wage, if $15 an
hour is workable, why not make
it $25 an hour.


Nobody is saying that it is workable at any level. The level proposed is carefully formulated.

Also, for what it is worth, UBI is an alternative to raining the min wage, taking the burden off of employers. Yang wants to leave min wage up to the states.

Those are two separate arguments which impose separate burdens (private employers vs tax dollars), UBI will allow private employers more flexibility.
August 15th, 2019 at 12:32:30 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Gandler
Nobody is saying that it is workable at any level. The level proposed is carefully formulated.


What does that mean. That $1000 is
the only amount it will work with?
That can't be correct. It doesn't
matter, it's a ridiculous idea for
any amount. You aren't creating
wealth, you're just moving already
existing wealth around on a game
board. Without creating new wealth
to pay for this, it's doomed to fail.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
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