Is math natural or synthetic?

Quote: AZDuffman

...as far as machines go, could you not just make a pattern so huge that no sharp is going to be able to hang around the casino to figure it out? Pattern of 1 million, 10 million? You would have to observe the machine for a year or more?

I seem to recall that this is the main usefulness of all the figures on the right side of the decimal point of Pi. However, since the string runs on infinitely, by definition, you will eventually find clumps of what appears to be non-random figures e.g.:

0122333444455555666666777777788888888999999999

or

010203040506070809

You will find your birth date next to your father's birth date, next to your grandfather's birth date...

Your date of birth and bank account pin can be found next to the routing and account number of your checking account.

The problem is, this chunk of data is so huge, and takes so much computing power to sort through, it is not practical for public use.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I seem to recall that this is the main usefulness of all the figures on the right side of the decimal point of Pi. However, since the string runs on infinitely, by definition, you will eventually find clumps of what appears to be non-random figures e.g.:

Begs another question. We know they have been working on how far to run Pi out for thousands of years. I remember in a math class that some guy worked on it for 20 years and I forget how many digits but he had an error part way thru. That all being said, how did they get the accurate measurements to start from? Off by just a hair and you are off the whole way.

You don't have to measure it.

One way to calculate it is to add up the length of the outside sides of a polygon inside and touching the circle, with more and more sides, and divide by the diameter.

The more sides on the polygon, the closer the sum of the length of the sides is to the circumference of a circle.

That's a bit of a simplification, but it is the general idea.

There are other ways, too.

I think Bob may be thinking about a different type of random. Nothing in this universe besides our free will is random. We know exactly how waves and clouds form and know where they will be. Everything follows very strict rules, the opposite of random. If it all the sudden rained muskrat or cheese appeared out of nowhere and seeds grew into aardvarks, well that is pretty random. Remember something cannot come from nothing.

Agreed. "Very complicated" and "Random" are not the same thing.

Quote: FrGamble

I think Bob may be thinking about a different type of random. Nothing in this universe besides our free will is random. We know exactly how waves and clouds form and know where they will be. Everything follows very strict rules, the opposite of random. If it all the sudden rained muskrat or cheese appeared out of nowhere and seeds grew into aardvarks, well that is pretty random. Remember something cannot come from nothing.

Everything is random Padre. When you were born it was random which genes you got from each parent. These genes have had some effect on your life although you may not agree with the effect you can't God has time to distribute the genes for each of the trillions of living things when they reproduce each year.

Not sure where you get the idea we know where the clouds will be, weather predictions are notoriously inaccurate, particularly on a local basis.

Quote: AZDuffman

In simple terms, what is the difference in this? If the "pattern can be replicated" how does it pass a test of randomness?

There are lots of tests of randomness. For example, take a count of how often each result occurs in a billion trials and then run it through a chi-squared test. A mersenne twister RNG will pass such a test with flying colors. However, the process of picking them can be replicated. That was how someone tried to scam an electronic keno game in Atlantic City. They knew which RNG it was using and exactly when they would launch the game. Using the same make of RNG, they knew exactly which balls would be drawn in the game.

Article: Nevada Gaming Regulator Charged In $100,000 Keno Scam

Quote: kenarman

Everything is random Padre.

Shh, don't burst his bubble. At one
time his Church believed witches
dried up wells and were responsible
for still born babies, so they burned
the women at the stake.

They reverse engineer everything
till they think they see a cause/effect
pattern and claim it's all pre-engineered.
Nothing random about it. He's here,
how can that possibly be do to a
random event. The horror...

Quote: Wizard

There are lots of tests of randomness. For example, take a count of how often each result occurs in a billion trials and then run it through a chi-squared test. A mersenne twister RNG will pass such a test with flying colors. However, the process of picking them can be replicated. That was how someone tried to scam an electronic keno game in Atlantic City. They knew which RNG it was using and exactly when they would launch the game. Using the same make of RNG, they knew exactly which balls would be drawn in the game.

I have seen that story. He likely would have gotten away with it if his partner had not asked for cash and used fake ID. Had he cashed in legit the casino would have probably figured it was just a bad day.

Quote: kenarman

Everything is random Padre. When you were born it was random which genes you got from each parent. These genes have had some effect on your life although you may not agree with the effect you can't God has time to distribute the genes for each of the trillions of living things when they reproduce each year.

Not sure where you get the idea we know where the clouds will be, weather predictions are notoriously inaccurate, particularly on a local basis.

I recognize there is randomness in the universe. My point is this so called randomness follows strict rules that govern it. I think Bob claimed once that all is randomness in the universe and that is wrong. Really everything is ordered and follows strict laws we can express using math.