Is math natural or synthetic?
January 1st, 2019 at 1:06:08 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 | Isn't it amazing that we live in a universe that can be so beautifully expressed by mathematics? It seems as if the universe was designed and is surely without a doubt not random. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
January 1st, 2019 at 4:24:29 PM permalink | |
kenarman Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 14 Posts: 4495 |
I think you have that backwards Padre. Mathematics was defined by the universe as man tried to understand it. "but if you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you." Benjamin Franklin |
January 1st, 2019 at 4:26:09 PM permalink | |
DRich Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 51 Posts: 4963 |
Or are we just seeing such a small sample that it appears not to be random Kind of like flipping a coin ten times and it comes up heads each time. Is the coin not random or is the sample too small? At my age a Life In Prison sentence is not much of a detrrent. |
January 1st, 2019 at 4:34:40 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
The whole religion is backwards. Their idea of science is trying to make everything fit into their limited views, then blame everything on a god they made up. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
January 1st, 2019 at 4:36:52 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
Looks pretty dang random to me. We're surrounded by randomness. The trees in the forest, the mountain ranges, the waves crashing on the beach, all random. The stars in the sky, all random. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
January 1st, 2019 at 5:38:09 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Nothing you just listed acts random at all. We know from a seed what exactly will grow, we know the tides and when and why the waves come and go, the stars move to our exact calculations and we know right where they are and where they will be. Everything is so orderly, what do you see that is random? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:55:13 AM permalink | |
AZDuffman Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 135 Posts: 18204 |
This begs the question, "is anything really random?" And "is random possible?" We have all surely heard that it is impossible for humans to create truly random numbers. Any computer program will have to have some kind of pattern. It might be a billion trials, but a pattern will emerge. In nature what appears random is really not, great example there is a beehive. Looks like chaos, really it is a self-managed factory. So many things have a pattern that will eventually be found. Is truly random even possible? Discuss. The President is a fink. |
January 3rd, 2019 at 10:33:51 AM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25011 |
We're surrounded by pure random events. Look at ocean waves, each one is unique. There are even people who study the randomness of ocean wave mechanics. Every snowflake is unique and random. Every cloud in the sky is random and constantly changing. There are no two natural forests in the the world that are the same, totally random outcomes for plant placement. The stars are randomly placed and no two behave exactly the same. Random.org has found the most reliable source of true random is atmospheric noise. I use their outcomes all the time, every bit as dependable as a roulette wheel. What's This Fuss About True Randomness? https://www.random.org/ The question is not is random possible, the real question is just how much random are we surrounded by. It's everywhere and in everything. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
January 3rd, 2019 at 11:14:31 AM permalink | |
Wizard Administrator Member since: Oct 23, 2012 Threads: 239 Posts: 6095 | This has been discussed before, but one of the great challenges in math/computer science is to create a perfect random number without outside stimulus. The serious random number generators will seed them with white noise somehow. For my own purposes in analyzing games, I've found Mersenne Twisters to pass any test of randomness. However, the pattern can be replicated, which ideally, you don't want. It is common knowledge you want to start the pattern at some truly random point, based on white noise, a neutrino count, or something. MathExtremist is a true expert at this topic. You might try to dig up his old posts on the topic over at WoV. Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber |
January 3rd, 2019 at 11:28:48 AM permalink | |
AZDuffman Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 135 Posts: 18204 |
In simple terms, what is the difference in this? If the "pattern can be replicated" how does it pass a test of randomness? I am no math expert there, and if it does not involve finance/econ I get lost more quickly. But even with that I am not getting the statement. In a related question as far as machines go, could you not just make a pattern so huge that no sharp is going to be able to hang around the casino to figure it out? Pattern of 1 million, 10 million? You would have to observe the machine for a year or more? The President is a fink. |