Happy Easter!

Quote: Evenbob

Mormon missionaries
learn quickly that they'll talk
nobody into their religion
unless the person in 90% there
already.

I would bet missionaries of any religion can say that, including missionaries of atheism, if there are such a thing.

Quote: Evenbob

Yup, that's 100% accurate. Whatever
their reason for the so called selfless
act or career, they're doing it for
selfish reasons 99% of the time.

I admit it, that's all. I rarely to
never do anything I don't want to
do, but neither does anybody else.
I just aware of that, and they aren't.

I think what you mean here is that very few people are self-masochists. What I think needs to be clarified is what selfishness means. To me acting selfish is to do something that makes you feel good emotionally or physically and usually does not consider others. I have hope that this is not what you mean by being selfish. You have correctly said many times that being led by our emotions is not a good way to live. To live by only choosing what will make me feel good could be considered selfish and I think it is destructive. I don't feel like going to the gym but I know I should and I do feel good afterwards. Sometimes I don't feel like going to the hospital in the middle of the night or to go over to the house where the family is in grief or fighting. These things don't make me feel good but I do them to serve others and I feel fulfilled in not doing what I want but what God wants.

I was shocked you didn't blink an eye to being a slave of selfishness. This basically means you are a slave to your emotions, your passions, and what makes you happy. You have made yourself into your God and you slavishly worship him. Don't you do anything that you would rather not do but feel a responsibility for or just do it because you know it is the right thing to do?

Quote: petroglyph

The difference is, we know there is nothing wrong with that, and don't pretend it is.

If it were that some supernatural being was going to judge me on my actions , I wouldn't be afraid of that. I have been decent and fair all of my adult years.

But it seems for the sellers of religion, how I have conducted my life isn't good enough. I'm supposed to surrender something else and believe what they conceive. I wish I didn't see the hypocrisy so vividly .

I am sure you would be judged as a really good guy. However, you were not made to be just a really good guy - you are so much more than that! A perfect God made you to be in a relationship with Him and just being a good guy means that you can't and don't deserve that, but God doesn't care He loves you too much and is willing to forgive you for it all. The hypocrisy you see so vividly is because we are loved sinners not perfect people who deserve God's praise. If you looked at yourself and others more as loved sinners instead of really good guys who mess up all the time you might be able to look past the hypocrisy and see God's unconditional love.

Quote: Evenbob

I feel that way at times. I wish I
could become a stick my head
in the sand Xtion and be devout
and give my life to some god.
How easy that would be to have
all the answers.

I think anyone in any religion would say that if you want to join to have all the answers you are doing it wrong. Religion is about a relationship with God. It is about love not knowledge. Sure religion helps us to deal with and understand the sorrows, sufferings, joys, and happiness of this life - but it is NOT about answers.

Quote: Evenbob

Once you know reality, that there
is no god, you can't unknow that.

You don't know that, unless you have blind faith. These men you mentioned never had the faith in atheism you pretend to have here because I believe they were intelligent enough to know that reality points to something greater than material atheism. There is nothing that would lead a logical person to conclude there is no God, absolutely nothing that can bring someone to that conclusion. They knew that and while they did not believe in God I think they seemed to have a much more healthy respect of these big questions than you seem to have.

Quote: Wizard

I don't think we really have a choice. Most people are either born with a skeptical nature or not. It isn't just religion. I've noticed religious types to easily believe urban legends or whatever else they hear, as long as it fits into their paradigm of the world. Even the bible says "many care called but few are chosen," implying it isn't our choice to make but it's predestined. That, I agree with, except it is predestined by our genetics, not a divine power.

Thus all this arguing about whether or not god exists is a total waste of time. Has anyone here had the slightest change in their position on that after the many thousands of posts on the topic?

I could not possibly disagree more.

Everyone has their gullible people, religious or not. Evenbob for example posted recently that in his reading he found the Inquistion to be worse than he thought. This is pure gullibility. Any serious study of this time period will lead a skeptical thinking person that the Inquistion as we see it portrayed in movies, novels, and biased websites is a pure myth or urban legend. This is why skepticism is essential to arrive at truth. The greatest saints and theologians are skeptics who aren't led by what they want to believe but they take an unblinking gaze into truth and promise to be led wherever it leads no matter what.

I don't think this desire to be skeptical and relentlessly pursue the truth is completely nature but really dependent on nurture as well. These types of people are open to change be it slight or large in their position. I reject the notion that we are not here to change each other's minds but just hone our own arguments. I would lose respect for anyone who when shown evidence that they are wrong does not change, whether that was me or anyone else. To be brutally honest I am sad to say this is why I have lost some respect for Evenbob over these many, many posts. I don't expect some great conversion, that doesn't happen over a forum. However, I think everyone has at some point recognized the validity of another's argument or admitted they were wrong about something. Evenbob never has and he continues to engage until he is shown to be wrong then he will either stop the conversation, change the topic, or continue to say the same thing over and over again as if we never discussed it. If I didn't believe in the power of words and truth I would have stopped long ago but I just don't believe that someone can be so closed minded to ignore truth over and over again when it is presented to him. Sorry to go on a little rant here but I really like the guy, but he so often disappoints me by his closed mindedness, meanness, and prejudice that I just needed to get this out. I probably deserve a suspension for it.

Quote: FrGamble

I could not possibly disagree more.

That's fine. Everyone thinks they are the skeptical one and those who disagree have blind faith the other way.

I'll let EB address the rest of your post. I am still trying to get him to admit he was wrong in his many predictions on the 2012 election.

Quote: FrGamble

acting selfish is to do something that makes you feel good emotionally or physically and usually does not consider others

That's the negative form of selfishness,
running rough shod over others. I'm
talking about positive selfishness, which
is what most people practice even if
they don't know it.

Quote: FrGamble

A perfect God made you to be in a relationship with Him .

Nah, he created his own reality and
a god isn't in it. He doesn't want
all that unnecessary baggage. If you
had a choice (you don't because you
were brainwashed young) you wouldn't
want it either.

Quote: FrGamble

Religion is about a relationship with God.

That's why it always fails, you can't
have a real relationship with something
fictional. What you end up with is
chaos, which describes worldwide tries
at religion.