Good Friday

Quote: FrGamble

we would not be free from the guilt and shame of our sin and the consequences of them,

I'm an expert on guilt and shame. Religious types create the concept of sin and then offer this "salvation" from it; the trouble is its like that "O Brother" line about forgiveness from the Lord don't count for nothn' with the Parole Board. And it sure don't count for nothin' in your own mind.

Quote: FrGamble

The Church is not to blame for guilt.

The Church has cultivated and planted
guilt for the last 1000 years, it's how
they stay in business. The two words
'Catholic guilt' are forever linked. Just
talk to any ex Catholic and ask them
about guilt. Or even present ones
if they're honest.

Quote:

You don't feel guilty for looking at porn and masturbating

Nope. Never have and never will,
My parents never talked about
it and I had no reason to feel any
guilt, I never looked at it as wrong
and still don't. My parents didn't
go to church so I was never exposed
to the destructive Xtio doctrine
that everything about sex except the
missionary position in marriage for
procreation only, is evil and will send
you straight to hell. Xtionity has
ruined far more lives than it ever
'saved' with it's restrictive teachings.

Quote: kenarman

I don't think we have enough information in our scenario to make a decision on your criteria.

I did say "all other things being equal" so avoid the character of both people being an issue.

Quote: Wizard

I did say "all other things being equal" so avoid the character of both people being an issue.

The real problem is of course "all other things being equal" is totally subjective. What the leader of the hell angels might consider a valuable skill is probably not your top priority. Most religious people would probably chose someone of their own religion over a person from another religion "all other things being equal". It will always come down to who has the power to make the decision and as I am sure you agree power corrupts. I see the only way out of this moral dilemma is to not try and rank them by the "good" they do. If someone is effecting the safety of your group than we can probably agree not to give them valuable resources. Although I am not sure how come we spend trillions of dollars supporting criminals and people who scam the system.

Quote: Wizard

some people contribute more to society than others.

Reminds me of the zen master that
was asked what the difference was
between the baby who died at birth
and the man who died at 90. The master
answered, "No difference."

Quote: FrGamble

....You don't feel guilty for looking at porn and masturbating because of the Church. It's not something we are proud of and we know the destructive evils of porn.

Makes me wonder what xtions or priests fantasize about while masturbating? You have an opportunity for some enlightenment here.

Quote: Evenbob

The Church has cultivated and planted
guilt for the last 1000 years,

Guilt has been around a lot longer than that. It is yourself that feels guilty. It is only natural to blame it on the Church or someone else. Nobody likes to feel guilty and when you can't deal with in any other way you look for scapegoats. It is the Church's fault I feel guilty.

Quote:

Nope. Never have and never will,

Yes you will and yes you do, you are not being honest with yourself.

Quote:

I was never exposed
to the destructive Xtio doctrine
that everything about sex except the
missionary position in marriage for
procreation only, is evil and will send
you straight to hell.

You were exposed though to this evil lie about what the Christianity doctrine regarding sex is and it seems to have messed you up pretty bad. Sex is a beautiful gift and a natural thing that unites loved ones together, strengthens emotional bonds, and has the possibility of bringing new life into the world. There are no restrictions on positions or foreplay and the like, you are sadly mistaken.

Quote: Evenbob

Reminds me of the zen master that
was asked what the difference was
between the baby who died at birth
and the man who died at 90. The master
answered, "No difference."

I'm sorry but doesn't that strike you as stupid? and incorrect?

Quote: FrGamble

Guilt has been around a lot longer than that.

Obviously the Church latched onto
it as an easy tool to control people
and it worked like a charm. Still does.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm sorry but doesn't that strike you as stupid? and incorrect?

Only if you think life has fate and
destiny and purpose. It has none
of those, you create your own day
to day reality, it doens't come from
outside of you. A newborns life is
no more important than an old mans,
how could it be.